HOW-TO: Stereo / Speaker / Amp Installation (Radio/Speaker/Inner Door Trim Removal)

I'll add pictures when I redo everything again next month to add Dyna-Mat. The installation is very simple.

You'll need a Trim Panel Removal Kit to follow this guide.

Note: Amazon and other websites may say that certain parts I link do not fit the Mirage. This is because the Mirage is new, though it's possible with time that better, closer fit, parts will come out. However, every part I've linked I am personally using on my 2014 Mitsubishi Mirage DE (USA) that I purchased the last week of December 2013.

Radio Installation

First things first, you'll need a double DIN head unit and a wiring harness.

Connect the wires to the harness that came with your radio, following your radios guide. Do not just twist the wires together, either use crimped connectors or solder them. They will come apart eventually if you don't. If you want to use an amp, don't connect the speaker wires to the head unit.

I'm assuming you have this stereo:
http://i.imgur.com/x45gatns.jpg

If you do, you need these parts from your local Mitsu dealer (around $90 total, remember to say "Can you do anything with that price?", they'll usually knock 10% off):

Front Panel: 8002B480XA
Brackets: 8750A262, 8750A263

If you have the nav installed you already have these parts and don't need them. I don't have the nav unit to test on, but to remove that it you should probably pry from the bottom of the trim, once you can get your fingers under it pull up, do this for each side. It should just pop off.

The trim panels need to be removed by starting at the top and working your way down. Using your hand, try to grab the edge of the vent and lift, while doing that slide the panel removal tool (the one without the forks) under the panel. Pry the panel up. Once you can get your fingers under it you should be able to pull it off. It will offer resistance and won't just pop off like nothing. Once that is off disconnect the hazard light switch cable harness and set it aside.

Remove the 2 visible screws at the top and place them in the cup holder, navigation units have 4 screws. Once the screws are out, pull the unit out. It has some clips and will offer some resistance. Once out, disconnect all the wiring harnesses from the back of the unit and set it aside.

Attach the brackets you purchased to your new head unit. If you have a nav unit, remove the brackets it used and attach those to your new head unit. The brackets used on the standard (non-nav) radio do not work with nav-style head units.

If you are also installing an amplifier you should install those wires now.

Attach your wiring harness adapter to the factory connection. Reconnect the wires to your new head unit. There will be a few left over, one of these is for the USB cable, the other I'm not sure about but it doesn't seem needed.

Replace the head unit into the dash, being sure that no cables are pinched. Put the screws back in. Those that had the nav unit previously can now reconnect the hazard light switch and replace the front trim panel. You're done!

For those using the standard (non-nav) radio, remove the vents from the top trim panel. They snap out and come off from behind. Snap them into the new trim panel. The switch for the hazard lights releases in the back and comes out the front. Pop it into the new trim panel. Once that's done, put your new trim panel on. You're done!

It should now look like this:

http://i.imgur.com/GSyWUnzs.jpg

Speaker Installation
You'll need 6 1/2" speakers, wiring harnesses, and speaker adapters. Note: You WILL be drilling new holes to install the speakers.

All 4 doors are very similar, the front doors have an extra trim panel that needs to be removed. I just pulled this off by hand, but you can use one of the panel tools. The front doors have 1 screw on the edge and the rear doors have 2 screws on the edges. Remove these. Remove the screw in the door pull cup (where you grab the door to close it), pull up on the trim piece and slide your trim removal tool under it and pop it off. This reveals 2 screws, remove them. Finally, remove the screw by the door release handle.

Starting at the bottom of the door slide the removal tool underneath, there is a slot underneath for this purpose. Pull up until you can get your hand underneath and pull outwards. They offered a LOT of resistance when I did this and it took several hard tugs to release it. Once it first pops off it's easy to pop the rest off. Slide the door panel up and away. Disconnect the wiring harnesses. There are blue and yellow colored cables. Remove the yellow and blue cables by pulling up on the colored plastic, rotate them and slide them out.

Once the door panel is off, disconnect the wiring harness from the speaker. Turn the speaker counter-clockwise to remove it. Hold the new bracket over the hole and using a drill put in 3 self tapping screws. Connect the wiring harness to the OEM connector then to the speaker. Install the speakers into the bracket. Test the speaker for functionality.

Reverse all the steps to reinstall the door panel. Tip: If you forget which of the colored cables goes where, use the power door locks and watch which cable moves, that's the one that goes in the top.

Amplifier Installation

If you only have one amplifier I highly suggestion using the passenger side. While it's farther from the battery there is more room under the seat and the trim panels on that side have routing paths for cables that are not being used. I was unable to find a pre-drilled hole so I fed my cable through the fender and in through the door, you may want to drill to install it. It's up to you.

In addition to that I highly suggest upgrading your electrical system, it will also make installation easier. You should pick up a new battery, along with a dual terminal kit for it. That will give you 2 battery posts instead of 1, making installation a breeze. You need the battery I linked to install the dual terminal kit I linked.

All door frame trim pieces can be removed by hand. Remove the one in the center first. The panel with the seat belt requires removing the back seats. Simply pull up on them and they come out easily. They are actually made for easy removal. Remove the large black trim panel and then the seat belt area trim panel should remove easily. Start from the back and get it over the metal. Once it starts coming off it removes easily. You'll be able to see a clear pathway for cables at this point.

I routed the RCA cables down the right of the center console and the speaker cables up the left, but my 4 channel amp was on the drivers side because I had a sub amp on the passenger side. I used the seat bolt on the doors side as a ground, this seems to work.

Wire up everything and reinstall it all. Don't forget your fuses!

All Done
You can see my setup here. I have a kicker 500W 4 channel amp (75W*4@4OHM) with a 1200W (800W@2OHM) sub amp powering 2 12" subs.

When I was doing research for this, I had someone at Best Buy and 2 people from a local shop tell me it was impossible to put that much power into a Mirage. With my upgrades I maintain 14V easily with the car idling w/the high beams on. I have a capacitor but I did not install it yet, I want to see how it preforms without it first. So far it all seems fine, but it's only been a day.

Nice write up and pics. I assume you're going to hide the wires when you have it apart to sound insulate? Is it just the radio you chose, or is the gap expected with aftermarket units using the factory bezel?

I bet those subs are badass in the Mirage.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RedDE5Spd

Nice write up and pics. I assume you're going to hide the wires when you have it apart to sound insulate? Is it just the radio you chose, or is the gap expected with aftermarket units using the factory bezel?

I bet those subs are badass in the Mirage.

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Yeah. I didn't want to go through the trouble of removing the center area since its bolted on. I'll tidy that up when I do the dynamat.

The gap is because of the factory bezel. Eventually someone should make an aftermarket one, until then this will work. If buying things twice bothers you, you can omit the bezel entirely, it's purely cosmetic. If the cosmetics bother you, maybe some black paperboard or something could conceal the gap better.

The subs are amazing, way oversized for the car. Inside the car I can't comfortably go above 12 on the volume knob, I float around 8-10. Outside the car I can go to 28 without distortion. Vibrates the windows in my house at that level.

Thanks for the nice write up, will be interesting to see some pictures!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ancyker

All 4 doors are very similar, the front doors have an extra trim panel that needs to be removed. I just pulled this off by hand, but you can use one of the panel tools. The front doors have 1 screw on the edge and the rear doors have 2 screws on the edges. Remove these. Remove the screw in the door pull cup (where you grab the door to close it), pull up on the trim piece and slide your trim removal tool under it and pop it off. This reveals 2 screws, remove them. Finally, remove the screw by the door release handle.

Starting at the bottom of the door slide the removal tool underneath, there is a slot underneath for this purpose. Pull up until you can get your hand underneath and pull outwards. They offered a LOT of resistance when I did this and it took several hard tugs to release it. Once it first pops off it's easy to pop the rest off. Slide the door panel up and away. Disconnect the wiring harnesses. There are blue and yellow colored cables. Remove the yellow and blue cables by pulling up on the colored plastic, rotate them and slide them out.

.

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How are the clips that they used on the Mirage? I once worked on a Volvo 360, but when you removed the door trims, all the clips broke off and it was almost impossible to reinstall it without using additional screws.!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by zefke

Thanks for the nice write up, will be interesting to see some pictures!



How are the clips that they used on the Mirage? I once worked on a Volvo 360, but when you removed the door trims, all the clips broke off and it was almost impossible to reinstall it without using additional screws.!

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No problems on the doors themselves, the trim around the door frame was a little troublesome. It didn't quite want to go back on the same way on the drives side, but since I stuffed it full of 4 gauge wire I'm guessing that's why. The passenger side had no issues and appeared otherwise identical. The cables going to the rear for lighting, etc, all seem to run on the drivers side. That's why I suggested running a power cable for an amp on the passenger side. I had 2 amps and had to run a cable on both sides.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ancyker

No problems on the doors themselves, the trim around the door frame was a little troublesome. It didn't quite want to go back on the same way on the drives side, but since I stuffed it full of 4 gauge wire I'm guessing that's why. The passenger side had no issues and appeared otherwise identical. The cables going to the rear for lighting, etc, all seem to run on the drivers side. That's why I suggested running a power cable for an amp on the passenger side. I had 2 amps and had to run a cable on both sides.

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Couldn't you run a single cable from the battery to a distribution block between the amps?
That's how I did my dad's car to save room and money from running dual cable sets.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RedDE5Spd

Couldn't you run a single cable from the battery to a distribution block between the amps?
That's how I did my dad's car to save room and money from running dual cable sets.

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Then I would have to use a larger gauge cable, either 2 or 1/0 gauge. That would be even harder to route, and then I would need individual fuse blocks after the split. The 4 gauge fit almost perfectly into the passenger side cable channels, if it had been larger it wouldn't have fit. The 4 gauge did fit perfectly through the fender, so using a larger gauge would have required drilling through the firewall, it would no longer be optional.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by zefke

Thanks for the nice write up, will be interesting to see some pictures!



How are the clips that they used on the Mirage? I once worked on a Volvo 360, but when you removed the door trims, all the clips broke off and it was almost impossible to reinstall it without using additional screws.!

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While I have NOT done the Mirage yet, I've done a couple of doors on a couple of (japanese subcompact) cars and the clips did not break off. When I was reinstalling, I just lined up the hole with the clip, gave it a bump/push, and the panel stayed. The screws were really just for reinforcement when you pull the door to close.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ares

While I have NOT done the Mirage yet, I've done a couple of doors on a couple of (japanese subcompact) cars and the clips did not break off. When I was reinstalling, I just lined up the hole with the clip, gave it a bump/push, and the panel stayed. The screws were really just for reinforcement when you pull the door to close.

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The only problem I've ever had with clips was when I tried to remove panels outside during the winter, about half of them broke. Plastic doesn't flex when it's cold and tends to break.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ancyker

The only problem I've ever had with clips was when I tried to remove panels outside during the winter, about half of them broke. Plastic doesn't flex when it's cold and tends to break.

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Yes that's correct, but if it is really crappy stuff it will even break when it is hot outside!:(

Quote:

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Originally Posted by zefke

Yes that's correct, but if it is really crappy stuff it will even break when it is hot outside!:(

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That's true, but I had no issues on a sunny 60F day.

I used a different approach. Rather than cutting my metal doors or drilling them out to make the speakers fit, I took the old speakers (which act as a spacer) cut the plastic frame of the speakers from the surrounding spacer/frame with a dremmel. Ripped the paper cone off of the surround. I then screwed the new speaker into the remains of the old speaker, and soldered the speaker leads to the new drivers. Then you just screw the frankenspeaker back onto the door and plug the connector in as nature intended.

This accomplished three things:
1) no modifications to the door, only the replaceable speakers
2) kept the stock spacing/height
3) kept the stock connector intact.

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Not bad, but I didn't mind the drilling because I never put the speakers back. I traded my mirage in July and didn't take any of the speakers out. I just reconnected them to the factory head unit.

If you order from Crutchfield they include the speaker adaptors which do the same thing as what you made, except for the screwing in part.

I'm not sure how much your efforts will be rewarded since the usual benefit of plug and play speakers is easily going back to oem but you destroyed the oem speakers to make your plug and play ones.

That aside, pretty cool idea. I suppose you could always try to grab someone else's oem speakers for cheap. I still have mine I think haha.

That reminds me, I meant to list the stereo bezel and brackets for sale...

Well, I already had speakers, so buying from crutchfield wasnt an option lol.

I destroyed the OEM speakers, but didnt have to put a screw into my door. Maybe thats just my weird mentality, but I dont plan on selling the car, or swapping any other speakers back in. I just wanted something cleanish without having to modify any door metal.

With the crutchfield spacers, you have to screw them into the metal still correct?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ancyker

Not bad, but I didn't mind the drilling because I never put the speakers back. I traded my mirage in July and didn't take any of the speakers out. I just reconnected them to the factory head unit.

If you order from Crutchfield they include the speaker adaptors which do the same thing as what you made, except for the screwing in part.

I'm not sure how much your efforts will be rewarded since the usual benefit of plug and play speakers is easily going back to oem but you destroyed the oem speakers to make your plug and play ones.

That aside, pretty cool idea. I suppose you could always try to grab someone else's oem speakers for cheap. I still have mine I think haha.

That reminds me, I meant to list the stereo bezel and brackets for sale...

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Yeah. I used self tapping screws. I suppose your way is cleaner, but, I'm not sure the extra effort for a clean look somewhere you don't see is worth it. Still, your car, your time, and it works, so if you're happy with it no big deal. Just figured it was worth mentioning for any others stumbling upon this.

In the first post, it is recommended to run the power wire through the fender, and then through the door, is this correct?


PLEASE DO NOT do this. I have seen cars burn to the ground because they ran the power wire for the amps through the door. I made a thread on here on how to run the power wire into the car via a factory grommet that maintains a water proof seal. It is MUCH safer that way, it looks almost stock under the hood, and your power wire will be shorter. I too ran 4 gauge wire, so it can be done.

There's no factory grommet that will fit 4 gauge.

(Real 4 gauge, not Walmart 4 gauge)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ancyker

There's no factory grommet that will fit 4 gauge.

(Real 4 gauge, not Walmart 4 gauge)

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I am using Monster Cable 4 gauge. Yes there is. But you do not run the wire through the grommet along with the other factory wires. You cut a small slit in the side of the grommet, between the factory wires and the edge of the grommet. It is VERY difficult to run the wire through (if it is easy to run the wire through then it won't be water proof). I know SEVERAL professional installers(3 of which have owned their own shop and have had cars they have done installs on featured in magazines) and this is a VERY common method that works great and lasts, as long as you don't cut a large slit in the grommet.

Not sure if Monster Cable is really 4 gauge or not, it's so overpriced (like all Monster products) I've never been able to bring myself to buy it.

I ran mine through the fender, and then covered the cable in plastic at the door to protect it. 7 months no issues. I don't actually have the car anymore or I'd take pics.

I don't keep cars long, so I didn't want anything super permanent that I was going to have to undo. While I did drill the speakers in, I had planned to leave those behind. The amps, however, I knew I'd be taking. If I was going to do the install proper, I'd drill through the firewall, install a new grommet, and run the cable through that.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ancyker

Not sure if Monster Cable is really 4 gauge or not, it's so overpriced (like all Monster products) I've never been able to bring myself to buy it.

I ran mine through the fender, and then covered the cable in plastic at the door to protect it. 7 months no issues. I don't actually have the car anymore or I'd take pics.

I don't keep cars long, so I didn't want anything super permanent that I was going to have to undo. While I did drill the speakers in, I had planned to leave those behind. The amps, however, I knew I'd be taking. If I was going to do the install proper, I'd drill through the firewall, install a new grommet, and run the cable through that.

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I was able to get a LOT of 4 gauge Monster cable for free many years ago. I took apart a LOT of car audio displays at Best Buy, and we were instructed to throw away all of the old wiring. Well, I did throw it away, in the back of my car! ;)


There has been a lot of different ways that I've seen people try to make running power wires through the fender and then through the door to help prevent the wire from getting pinched, but eventually they all fail and the wire will short out. When this happens, your fuse will blow, but if you are not running a fuse then your car WILL catch on fire. Even for temporary use, this is not the way to do it. This is a safety issue. Either do it right, and safe or do not do it.

I couldn't seem to find the thread you mentioned. Could you post a link please?

Thanks

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 91cavgt

In the first post, it is recommended to run the power wire through the fender, and then through the door, is this correct?


PLEASE DO NOT do this. I have seen cars burn to the ground because they ran the power wire for the amps through the door. I made a thread on here on how to run the power wire into the car via a factory grommet that maintains a water proof seal. It is MUCH safer that way, it looks almost stock under the hood, and your power wire will be shorter. I too ran 4 gauge wire, so it can be done.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by LurgidBee

I couldn't seem to find the thread you mentioned. Could you post a link please?

Thanks

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Page 5 of my under seat subwoofer install has a few pics and a bit of how I did it. After several car washes and a LOT of heavy rain it still has not leaked any water.

http://mirageforum.com/forum/showthr...ger-seat/page5

For those looking for a way to mount aftermarket speakers, the part number for the correct spacers
is CT25MT02. Lancers and Outlanders share the same part for their doors as well. :)

Also, for those who don't want to cut up the speaker wires, cable adapter is CT55-MT01.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 91cavgt

The limitation to the stock system, besides the speakers, appears to be the tiny wire and small power output of the stock radio. If you really want good quality sound, you are going to need to run new, larger gauge wire to the speakers from either an aftermarket radio, or from an amplifier. The stock wiring is either 20 or 22 gauge.

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I hate to burst your bubble but I have to say bull****. You do NOT need thicker gauge wire. Most cars today all use similar wire gauge. In my 2005 Subaru Impreza WRX STI, I fell for the bull**** like everyone else, that in order to get good sound I would need thicker wire. So I opted for 12 gauge as that seemed like the largest needed for speakers. Installed it, and got ZERO difference in sound. And I mean it sounded exactly the effing same. I have the SMD-DD1 amp tuner, and I tuned the amp before and after the wire gauge difference and I gained nothing from the amps output by going to a bigger size. So if it doesn't help go louder, what did it do? NOTHING. In fact, it was so much of nothing, I removed the wire I ran and hooked it back up the smart way, IE RCA to amp, then AMP to wire harness behind the head unit. I am running 150watts RMS to both my front speakers in my STI and I have zero distortion (granted, I also used the SMD-DD1 to make sure amp wasn't causing said distortion.) Literally can crank the bad boy up to 50 out of 62 on my pioneer deh-80prs, I can walk away from the car and you can still hear it very far away. 150watts rms is no joke. If I can run 150watts RMS over stock wire, you can too.

http://www.audioholics.com/audio-vid...iew_fullscreen

here is a great view of wire gauge vs db loss. Anything above the dotted line is so negligible its only noticeable with audio testing equipment, your ears wont hear it at all. You can see that 18 gauge wire is good for up to 14 feet before you get db loss, even then the loss is still so low you wont notice it. Guess what, your car's stock wiring from the headunit to each door is less than 14 feet. Granted, the subaru comes with 18 gauge wire. As crazy as it sounds, im 99.9% sure the mirage should have 18 gauge stock wiring as well, as it is a common standard among import cars. Even my previous vehicles, a 93 del sol and 06 s2000 both had 18 gauge wire. The only time I've seen smaller 20-22 gauge wire was in crappy domestic american cars from the past.

ask any electrical engineer, the market is flooded with bull****. "you get better picture quality if you use this 200 dollar HDMI cable over the low price 20 dollar one" bull****. Its placebo. An HDMI cable is an HDMI cable. An audio cable is an audio cable. The only time to worry about cable wire size is if you are buying speaker wire, and they measure their gauge wrong (like many power cables for amps, you get 4 gauge wire and its actually 6 because the casing is thicker than true 4 gauge brands).

you ever notice that when you buy an amp, the only wire size recommendation is power and ground wires? why wouldn't they tell you what speaker wire to use too? because honestly it doesn't matter. and even if you somehow pass the point of db audio loss, that is simply volume, not quality. so you lose .0X of a DB, big whoop...........

Quote:

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Originally Posted by namco

I hate to burst your bubble but I have to say bull****. You do NOT need thicker gauge wire. Most cars today all use similar wire gauge. In my 2005 Subaru Impreza WRX STI, I fell for the bull**** like everyone else, that in order to get good sound I would need thicker wire. So I opted for 12 gauge as that seemed like the largest needed for speakers. Installed it, and got ZERO difference in sound. And I mean it sounded exactly the effing same. I have the SMD-DD1 amp tuner, and I tuned the amp before and after the wire gauge difference and I gained nothing from the amps output by going to a bigger size. So if it doesn't help go louder, what did it do? NOTHING. In fact, it was so much of nothing, I removed the wire I ran and hooked it back up the smart way, IE RCA to amp, then AMP to wire harness behind the head unit. I am running 150watts RMS to both my front speakers in my STI and I have zero distortion (granted, I also used the SMD-DD1 to make sure amp wasn't causing said distortion.) Literally can crank the bad boy up to 50 out of 62 on my pioneer deh-80prs, I can walk away from the car and you can still hear it very far away. 150watts rms is no joke. If I can run 150watts RMS over stock wire, you can too.

http://www.audioholics.com/audio-vid...iew_fullscreen

here is a great view of wire gauge vs db loss. Anything above the dotted line is so negligible its only noticeable with audio testing equipment, your ears wont hear it at all. You can see that 18 gauge wire is good for up to 14 feet before you get db loss, even then the loss is still so low you wont notice it. Guess what, your car's stock wiring from the headunit to each door is less than 14 feet. Granted, the subaru comes with 18 gauge wire. As crazy as it sounds, im 99.9% sure the mirage should have 18 gauge stock wiring as well, as it is a common standard among import cars. Even my previous vehicles, a 93 del sol and 06 s2000 both had 18 gauge wire. The only time I've seen smaller 20-22 gauge wire was in crappy domestic american cars from the past.

ask any electrical engineer, the market is flooded with bull****. "you get better picture quality if you use this 200 dollar HDMI cable over the low price 20 dollar one" bull****. Its placebo. An HDMI cable is an HDMI cable. An audio cable is an audio cable. The only time to worry about cable wire size is if you are buying speaker wire, and they measure their gauge wrong (like many power cables for amps, you get 4 gauge wire and its actually 6 because the casing is thicker than true 4 gauge brands).

you ever notice that when you buy an amp, the only wire size recommendation is power and ground wires? why wouldn't they tell you what speaker wire to use too? because honestly it doesn't matter. and even if you somehow pass the point of db audio loss, that is simply volume, not quality. so you lose .0X of a DB, big whoop...........

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First off, settle down. There is absolutely no reason to slam someone like you just did.

Second, I thank you for not just taking what people state as fact and questioning things (even if I disagree with how you did it).

Third, you contradicted yourself and said that wire size does not matter, and then you admitted that it does matter(for power). You do realize that the ONLY difference between the electricity on the power wires and the electricity on the speaker wires is D/C current (power wires) vs. A/C current (speaker wires) right? If wire size did not matter with A/C power then every single house out there would be wired with the smallest gauge wire possible, but that is not the case.

So, with just BARELY brushing the surface, there is a VERY valid reason why wire size does in fact matter when it comes to speakers. If you would like me to delve into the science of it all I would be happy to do so. Just tone down the harshness some, ok?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 91cavgt

First off, settle down. There is absolutely no reason to slam someone like you just did.

Second, I thank you for not just taking what people state as fact and questioning things (even if I disagree with how you did it).

Third, you contradicted yourself and said that wire size does not matter, and then you admitted that it does matter(for power). You do realize that the ONLY difference between the electricity on the power wires and the electricity on the speaker wires is D/C current (power wires) vs. A/C current (speaker wires) right? If wire size did not matter with A/C power then every single house out there would be wired with the smallest gauge wire possible, but that is not the case.

So, with just BARELY brushing the surface, there is a VERY valid reason why wire size does in fact matter when it comes to speakers. If you would like me to delve into the science of it all I would be happy to do so. Just tone down the harshness some, ok?

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I didn't contradict myself in any bit. Take a digital multimeter, and check the power running to say a 150 watt x 2 speaker car amp at full power, then go to your door speaker and again check how much power is running. the a/c current at the car's speaker is relatively low, at about 0-30 amps depending on the volume.

even when tuning amps with car audio, the rule of thumb to set the amp is "voltage = square root of watts x ohm" so if I am running 300 watts rms at 2 ohms that's 600 watts, that 24.4948xxxxxxxxx amps. so when tuning the amps gain setting, if I set the amp to 24.4 amps i should get my 150 watts per 2 speaker gain setting i want. Keeping the OEM WIRE I measured the amps where the speaker connected to the speaker wire, where I got 24.39 which is .01 of a loss, which isn't even audible! and that is with stock 18 gauge wire which as I said in my other lengthy post is about the norm for car audio.

now according to DC wire size to feet tables, this states that at 24 amps, 18 gauge is only sufficient for 3-5 feet, so my amp being under the driver seat of my scooby, the 18 gauge from there runs up the center console under the dash to where the stock wire is, which alone is 4 feet of wire, then from there goes through the oem harness to the two doors, which is about 3-6 feet (guess-timation) that's a total of 7 to 10 feet of wire that should NOT carry that power, and should have more power LOSS.

the fuse on my amp is 30, its recommended to use 8 gauge wire or else the amp will not work correctly. if we use the same table from before, true 8 gauge wire should be good for up to 25 feet but only using 40 amps, which is already OVER what the amp needs. how long is the power wire in your amp kits? about 15-25 feet depending on the kit right? that ensures the amp works flawlessly regardless. yet running about 24 amps to the door, 18 gauge works. because AC is DIFFERENT than DC. you can't hear a difference. I even tried putting in 12 gauge to see what changes, and the sound was exactly the same.

but by all means, if it makes you feel better wiring up your car with extra crap you don't need for peace of mind go for it, but for people who don't want to waste money, you can do more with less. 150 watts to both front door speakers RMS is no effing joke, its killer loud, like after a 10-15 minute drive ears are ringing loud, and I doubt MOST normal car people will even want to go that high, most people opt for about 50-75 watts of rms power, which means less amps, which makes 18 gauge even more okay.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by namco

I didn't contradict myself in any bit. Take a digital multimeter, and check the power running to say a 150 watt x 2 speaker car amp at full power, then go to your door speaker and again check how much power is running. the a/c current at the car's speaker is relatively low, at about 0-30 amps depending on the volume.

even when tuning amps with car audio, the rule of thumb to set the amp is "voltage = square root of watts x ohm" so if I am running 300 watts rms at 2 ohms that's 600 watts, that 24.4948xxxxxxxxx amps. so when tuning the amps gain setting, if I set the amp to 24.4 amps i should get my 150 watts per 2 speaker gain setting i want. Keeping the OEM WIRE I measured the amps where the speaker connected to the speaker wire, where I got 24.39 which is .01 of a loss, which isn't even audible! and that is with stock 18 gauge wire which as I said in my other lengthy post is about the norm for car audio.

now according to DC wire size to feet tables, this states that at 24 amps, 18 gauge is only sufficient for 3-5 feet, so my amp being under the driver seat of my scooby, the 18 gauge from there runs up the center console under the dash to where the stock wire is, which alone is 4 feet of wire, then from there goes through the oem harness to the two doors, which is about 3-6 feet (guess-timation) that's a total of 7 to 10 feet of wire that should NOT carry that power, and should have more power LOSS.

the fuse on my amp is 30, its recommended to use 8 gauge wire or else the amp will not work correctly. if we use the same table from before, true 8 gauge wire should be good for up to 25 feet but only using 40 amps, which is already OVER what the amp needs. how long is the power wire in your amp kits? about 15-25 feet depending on the kit right? that ensures the amp works flawlessly regardless. yet running about 24 amps to the door, 18 gauge works. because AC is DIFFERENT than DC. you can't hear a difference. I even tried putting in 12 gauge to see what changes, and the sound was exactly the same.

but by all means, if it makes you feel better wiring up your car with extra crap you don't need for peace of mind go for it, but for people who don't want to waste money, you can do more with less. 150 watts to both front door speakers RMS is no effing joke, its killer loud, like after a 10-15 minute drive ears are ringing loud, and I doubt MOST normal car people will even want to go that high, most people opt for about 50-75 watts of rms power, which means less amps, which makes 18 gauge even more okay.

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What source material were you using for your test? did you use an rta to read db levels, and if you did where was the mic placed during each test? In my 24 years of car audio I have never heard of anyone tuning a system the way you describe.

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Originally Posted by namco

the rule of thumb to set the amp is "voltage = square root of watts x ohm"

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I just learned something new about Ohm's Law! :)

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Originally Posted by 91cavgt

What source material were you using for your test? did you use an rta to read db levels, and if you did where was the mic placed during each test? In my 24 years of car audio I have never heard of anyone tuning a system the way you describe.

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its a poor mans tuning option but it works, you may end up with clipping too but its the risk you take..... i happen to have bought a SMD-DD1 to tune my amps now which works just as well as an oscilloscope for detecting distortion, even then you can still plug a DMM up to everything as I described and realize 18 gauge works as it should.

what boggles my mind is you have been doing audio for 24 years and you never heard of using ohms law to tune amps. as i said its not perfect but it works. maybe you just always have money to spend on nice stuff but facts are facts. the 18 gauge wire is not an issue for door speakers. now running a subwoofer speaker off 18 gauge wire i would agree is dumb, but you are also talking more watts going through meaning more amps meaning thicker wire sizes.

the only reason I can think of that you are fighting me on this so hard is being that you have been "doing this for 24 years" means you might lose business? this is a forum for people not your personal business sales area. in any business if you want to lie to customers do it on your own website and in your own store, don't spread that **** on the internet where it dont belong. the wire size argument has been beat to death over and over, even back in the 70's and 80's when magazines would cover the same issue in extensive articles. the 200 dollar hdmi cable will do the same thing as a 20 dollar cable, the only difference is peace of mind.

Namco, you seem to know a bit about electricity and electronics. I'm curious to know where did you study?

Namco, please tone down your rhetoric. Why the personal attacks? As I have already stated, the Mirage uses 20-22 gauge wire on the speakers, not 18 gauge. Take the door panels off for yourself and you will see. As far as why I am sticking to the whole wire size matters argument is because it does. Oh, and I do not own a car audio business either but I did go to school, aced the 2 electrical clases, and have an ase certification in electrical repair.

Guys guys.. Can we all get along without poking each other eyes?

We don't really want to get this thread locked, do we?

Caution, science material ahead.


The human ear can hear a lot and can distinguish a lot, but only in narrow db(decibel) ranges. If you get too quiet, say below about 60 db it gets harder to distinguish differences in sound. Same goes for louder sounds. Once you get over about 110 db or so of full range sound, the ear itself will start to have difficulties in translating what is heard by the brain. So, once you go over about 110 db of full range sound, your brain starts to perceive distortion even when there may not be any distortion present, not to mention at some frequencies 110 db is the threshold for pain. A good way to tell if you have hit this threshold is to put on hearing protection without changing the volume. If the sounds are suddenly clear and the distortion went away then it was in fact not the speakers distorting but it was your ears not being able to translate what they were hearing effectively to the brain. I will get back to this paragraph shortly as to it's importance.

Speakers are rated at a sensitivity level. Either 1 watt/meter or 2.83 volts/meter (basically the same) and is a good representation of how effecient a speaker is. Average aftermarket speakers are approximately 90 db/watt with some being higher and some being lower. In order to increase the volume by 3 db, you need to double the power going to the speaker. So giving the speaker 2 watts of input power instead of 1 will yield a 93 db peak. If you keep going on this path, when you get to 128 watts of input power then you are sitting at 111 db which, for some frequencies, is over the threshold for pain as outlined in the first paragraph.

So, if you have your amps maxed out sending 150 watts rms to your speakers, the threshold of pain limit has already been exceeded, then how are you going to perceive any difference in sound caused from a size difference in the wire? The answer is the human ear can't. It is physically impossible at those levels.



Now as to the speaker wire size argument. Yes, I will agree that for very short runs, you will not see much of an improvement from going from 20 gauge wire up to say 16 gauge wire. Very few people will actually be able to tell the audible difference in sound between the 2, and just about no one would be able to tell a difference in sound at normal volumes with the typical background noises seen in an automobile environment. However, there is a LOT more going on here besides just what you hear. Namco, you stated that you saw with your test equipment a 0.1 amp difference between using 18 gauge wire vs. 12 gauge. First off, I agree that 12 gauge wire is over kill and should not be used for those power levels for your typical full range speaker. But what does that 0.1 amp difference mean? It means there was more resistance. Resistance is not just a number to be thrown around. Resistance in the real world, the more you have, turns into heat. Not just in the wire, but also in the amplifier. The higher the resistance, the less power is going to make it to the speakers, the hotter the amp is going to be running while it is trying to push the power through the wire (for a lack of better terms).

So your results even show that the smaller the wire, the higher the resistance. If speaker wire size does in fact not matter than what don't automotive manufactures install 24 gauge wire for all of the speakers in cars? After all, the bean counters would love to save a couple of bucks on every car, but electrical engineers know better and put their foot down. The answer is due to resistance. Running wire that small would negatively effect the electronics(radio/amp) in the car and cause more heat which would decrease the lifespan of the electronics and it would also potentially introduce premature corrosion in the wires.

I make no more or less money if people buy or don't buy wires. I make no more or less money if people choose one brand of speaker over the other. I am on this board to try to help educate others, to talk about the Mirage, and to share in our love of cars. What no one likes here, or on any other boards are personal insults. I have asked you nicely twice to tone down your rhetoric. Can we have a civilized discussion without throwing insults around?

@91cavgt

Here is a link to audio test samples, take a look: http://www.audiocheck.net/soundtests_headphones.php

10G may be overkill, but you need to consider that audio isn't only about power transfer but about distortion too. I had wired home systems and there was detectable improvement in going to 10G on 20'+ runs. 10' of 22G will have 0.161 ohms of resistance, and a set of Pioneers we put in had 2.77 ohm static resistance. Would not effect power transmission much but enough to increase THD %. Not that it is worth rewiring at least prior to getting amp set up.

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Originally Posted by 91cavgt

Now as to the speaker wire size argument. Yes, I will agree that for very short runs, you will not see much of an improvement from going from 20 gauge wire up to say 16 gauge wire. Very few people will actually be able to tell the audible difference in sound between the 2, and just about no one would be able to tell a difference in sound at normal volumes with the typical background noises seen in an automobile environment. However, there is a LOT more going on here besides just what you hear. Namco, you stated that you saw with your test equipment a 0.1 amp difference between using 18 gauge wire vs. 12 gauge. First off, I agree that 12 gauge wire is over kill and should not be used for those power levels for your typical full range speaker. But what does that 0.1 amp difference mean? It means there was more resistance. Resistance is not just a number to be thrown around. Resistance in the real world, the more you have, turns into heat. Not just in the wire, but also in the amplifier. The higher the resistance, the less power is going to make it to the speakers, the hotter the amp is going to be running while it is trying to push the power through the wire (for a lack of better terms).

So your results even show that the smaller the wire, the higher the resistance. If speaker wire size does in fact not matter than what don't automotive manufactures install 24 gauge wire for all of the speakers in cars? After all, the bean counters would love to save a couple of bucks on every car, but electrical engineers know better and put their foot down. The answer is due to resistance. Running wire that small would negatively effect the electronics(radio/amp) in the car and cause more heat which would decrease the lifespan of the electronics and it would also potentially introduce premature corrosion in the wires.

I make no more or less money if people buy or don't buy wires. I make no more or less money if people choose one brand of speaker over the other. I am on this board to try to help educate others, to talk about the Mirage, and to share in our love of cars. What no one likes here, or on any other boards are personal insults. I have asked you nicely twice to tone down your rhetoric. Can we have a civilized discussion without throwing insults around?

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No. The .01 difference in amps wasn't from changing the wire. I measured the amplifiers output at the positive and negative and then again at the door using the same test tone for both checks. The difference was .01 of a difference which isn't anything at all.

As you said, how can you tell the difference with it being so painfully loud, easy, using a distortion detector. OR, instead of using ear protection, simply walk away from the car at distance. Also at lower volumes there is no issue, which it shouldn't because less power you use, makes even more for the case of NOT upgrading the stock wire.

As I've said, I have a distortion detector, SMD-DD1, if you have ever heard of it, if not, google it. Its as accurate as using an oscilloscope and someone who doesn't work for the company actually put it next to an oscilloscope to see if it will accurately detect distortion in quite a few tests, and the distortion detector was flawless, making it great for someone who cannot afford a crazy priced oscilloscope, like myself. With the small wire, there was no distortion, even with putting more power than it should technically handle.

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Originally Posted by Eggman

Namco, you seem to know a bit about electricity and electronics. I'm curious to know where did you study?

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I didn't go to college, nor any school like 91cavgt. I simply used books you can pick up at a library for next to nothing and studied. I do have my electrical ASE for mechanics but that's not really what this is all about.

MOST people on this website, are NOT going to be running enough power to their speakers to need a wire upgrade, therefore there is literally NO POINT in an upgrade as I've been stating. Maybe if they were running the power levels that I am in my STI, even then they don't need to go much bigger, 18 gauge will work just fine.

I am impressed with how much info there is to learn here about speaker wire! What a great resource this is.

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Originally Posted by namco

No. The .01 difference in amps wasn't from changing the wire. I measured the amplifiers output at the positive and negative and then again at the door using the same test tone for both checks. The difference was .01 of a difference which isn't anything at all.

As you said, how can you tell the difference with it being so painfully loud, easy, using a distortion detector. OR, instead of using ear protection, simply walk away from the car at distance. Also at lower volumes there is no issue, which it shouldn't because less power you use, makes even more for the case of NOT upgrading the stock wire.

As I've said, I have a distortion detector, SMD-DD1, if you have ever heard of it, if not, google it. Its as accurate as using an oscilloscope and someone who doesn't work for the company actually put it next to an oscilloscope to see if it will accurately detect distortion in quite a few tests, and the distortion detector was flawless, making it great for someone who cannot afford a crazy priced oscilloscope, like myself. With the small wire, there was no distortion, even with putting more power than it should technically handle.



I didn't go to college, nor any school like 91cavgt. I simply used books you can pick up at a library for next to nothing and studied. I do have my electrical ASE for mechanics but that's not really what this is all about.

MOST people on this website, are NOT going to be running enough power to their speakers to need a wire upgrade, therefore there is literally NO POINT in an upgrade as I've been stating. Maybe if they were running the power levels that I am in my STI, even then they don't need to go much bigger, 18 gauge will work just fine.

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My bad, I saw that you posted 24.4948 amps and thought that is what you had tuned your system to. I went back and re-read your post and saw that you tuned it to 24.4, then measured a 24.39 amp reading at the speakers, hence 0.01 amp drop. But once again, that is caused from resistance on 18 gauge wire. This resistance would be higher with 20 gauge wire.


I have never used a distortion detector to set gains on amps, because the gains on the amps are intended to be set to match the voltage output of the deck you are using. As you stated, a simple multimeter can do that job. When you tune the amp to match the voltage output of the deck you are using, you end up with a lot of headroom because you are not maxing out the amp like you said you did with the distortion detector. Since personally I prefer sound quality systems instead of spl systems, headroom is more important to me than making sure my amps are pumping out all they are designed to put out.

A couple of questions you haven't answered yet is when you were using this distortion detector, what source material were you using and was your amp set to full pass, high pass, or low pass?

Attachment 5029
i just have a question. will the speaker for this boom box work as a woofer when used in our mirage? do i still have to use an amplifier for it to work?

because i still have my old boom box but its not working anymore so i was thinking of using the speakers. it not the exact model but the built is the same. its a JVC.

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Originally Posted by mitsumi

Attachment 5029
i just have a question. will the speaker for this boom box work as a woofer when used in our mirage? do i still have to use an amplifier for it to work?

because i still have my old boom box but its not working anymore so i was thinking of using the speakers. it not the exact model but the built is the same. its a JVC.

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The speaker in the side is considered the woofer. You would still have to have some kind of amplifier on it and if you built a box for it, it would have to have the exact air space, porting(if the box is ported), and port length (once again, if the box is ported). Any deviation and it won't work as well.

A quick way to tell if it would help your sound is to put it in the car, then tune the car radio and this boom box to the same radio station. Adjust the car radio volume to your normal listening level, then slowly raise the volume up on the boom box. If it can't put out more than the stock speakers then it would be a waste of time to do anything with it. Otherwise, if it helps the sound then give it a shot! Consider it recycling!

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Originally Posted by 91cavgt

My bad, I saw that you posted 24.4948 amps and thought that is what you had tuned your system to. I went back and re-read your post and saw that you tuned it to 24.4, then measured a 24.39 amp reading at the speakers, hence 0.01 amp drop. But once again, that is caused from resistance on 18 gauge wire. This resistance would be higher with 20 gauge wire.


I have never used a distortion detector to set gains on amps, because the gains on the amps are intended to be set to match the voltage output of the deck you are using. As you stated, a simple multimeter can do that job. When you tune the amp to match the voltage output of the deck you are using, you end up with a lot of headroom because you are not maxing out the amp like you said you did with the distortion detector. Since personally I prefer sound quality systems instead of spl systems, headroom is more important to me than making sure my amps are pumping out all they are designed to put out.

A couple of questions you haven't answered yet is when you were using this distortion detector, what source material were you using and was your amp set to full pass, high pass, or low pass?

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The amp is the pioneer d800 which is a full range class fd amp for door speakers. It doesn't have a built in crossover, so my pioneer deh-80prs does that job. The SMD-DD1 comes with a test CD you play in your headunit (or oem system).

Even with you liking SQL over SPL, you can still get SPL at high volume levels....

Also, the SMD-DD1 (not to sound like a fanboy) has more than enough tracks on its test cd to set you up how you like (-db settings to get more sql). One test tone is used to check your headunits output, as many aftermarket decks will not go to max volume without distorting, for example my deh-80prs with the internal amp on distorts at 50/62, but when that's turned off I can go 62/62. Another headunit might only go to 35 and distort at 20. Then it wouldn't matter how you set your amp gains because even if it was matched, you would distort at your #. It can check the headunit for both full range speakers and subwoofer outputs (as each is tested with their own tone, i think its 40hz for subwoofers and 1khz for the front speakers as those two are said to use the most power and thus draw the most amps when being played.) Then, you hook the distortion detector up to your amp (if you have one) and play the other test track listed in the manual and you set your amps gains. I think it has both test signals at -0db, -5db, -10db, and -15db. Now granted, by setting everything up via distortion, if you always have a clean signal, you will always have clear audio. Its amazing how you can play 150watts of power and there is zero distortion. Granted, technically its not just checking for simply distortion, on an oscilloscope, when the wave starts to square off, even in the slightest, is when the SMD-DD1 tells you to chill out on your gain level. It literally wont let you have a signal that is degraded.

According to an online calculator, the length of wire of 18 gauge mixed with 150 watts at 2.7 ohms (polk mm6501) I am losing .02 db, anything under 1 db isn't audible to human ears (or is said to be) but as I said, even I couldn't tell when I ran the 12 gauge to each door. According to that same website, changing out the wire to 12 gauge and upping the feet in length netted me .01 of a loss, which is only .01 db difference between 18 gauge and 12 gauge. This is why I keep saying its not needed. And we are also talking high power systems.

And if you mean test material as in what music im listening to which is telling me no distortion, I listen to everything from EDM (i know its wrong to lump all the genre's together, but i dont feel like typing them all), hip hop and r&b, classical, oldies (60's), rock, metal, grunge, punk. pretty much I have at least 1 song from every genre i like. None of them sound horrible or distorted even at full volume.