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Thread: CVT owners... what is "Idle Neutral Logic"? And what is it like to drive?

  1. #11
    Member AntInOz's Avatar
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    Paying attention driving today and it is definitely not always happening. It was creeping at the roundabout but not at the lights. My current hunch (I will need to do some testing down the road) is that it is time delayed. A quick stop (roundabout, street corner etc.) it doesn't engage, slightly longer stop (lights, stop sign etc) it does.


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        click to view fuel log View my fuel log 2013 Mirage LS (Australia) 1.2 automatic: 34.8 mpg (US) ... 14.8 km/L ... 6.8 L/100 km ... 41.8 mpg (Imp)


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  3. #12
    Administrator MetroMPG's Avatar
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    Thanks, Ant! Once it has engaged neutral, how do you find the next startup? Smooth? Jerky? Depend on amount of throttle given?

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        click to view fuel log View my fuel log 2014 Mirage base ES 1.2 manual: 54.0 mpg (US) ... 23.0 km/L ... 4.4 L/100 km ... 64.9 mpg (Imp)


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    It will jerk slightly

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        click to view fuel log View my fuel log 2013 Mirage (Malaysia) GS 1.2 automatic: 44.6 mpg (US) ... 19.0 km/L ... 5.3 L/100 km ... 53.6 mpg (Imp)


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    Quote Originally Posted by Daox View Post
    I wonder if, as a fuel economy modification, one could setup a switch to engage this neutral logic at will? I would also wonder if that would do any damage to the transmission due to lack of lubrication as is the case for some automatic transmissions...
    As far as I can tell our Kiwi market CVT Mirage doesn't have Neutral Logic so I have taken to moving the gear selector into Neutral when it becomes obvious that the car will be stopped for more than a few seconds. When in slow moving traffic simply pulling the selector back into Drive is enough to make the car creep forward.

    So, that makes me wonder if Neutral Logic is switchable in software ? It seems unlikely to me that Mitsi would go to the trouble of fitting different ECUs, or developing different programming for a universal ECU for what is designed to be a basic world-market car.

    Cheers
    Flange

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    Senior Member IchabodCrane's Avatar
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    When the cvt starts from a dead stop it feels exactly the same as a manual with a noticeable progressive clutch engagement phase flowing seamlessly into cvt operation.
    You get the same feel with neutral logic when leaving a light.
    Will weld for beer.

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        click to view fuel log View my fuel log 2014 Mirage SE 1.2 automatic: 45.3 mpg (US) ... 19.3 km/L ... 5.2 L/100 km ... 54.5 mpg (Imp)


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    Administrator MetroMPG's Avatar
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    Ichabod: can you tell when idle neutral is active? If so, how? I didn't drive the CVT long enough to be able to tell definitively.

    Quote Originally Posted by Flange View Post
    So, that makes me wonder if Neutral Logic is switchable in software ? It seems unlikely to me that Mitsi would go to the trouble of fitting different ECUs, or developing different programming for a universal ECU for what is designed to be a basic world-market car.
    I think it's all in the programming. Mitsu have made a bunch of other country-specific changes to the car for cost, fuel economy, comfort, handling & regulatory reasons.

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        click to view fuel log View my fuel log 2014 Mirage base ES 1.2 manual: 54.0 mpg (US) ... 23.0 km/L ... 4.4 L/100 km ... 64.9 mpg (Imp)


  9. #17
    Senior Member IchabodCrane's Avatar
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    Metro..

    One way to tell the diff is to stop on level surface apply brake, shift to neutral, wait a couple sec, put car in drive. You will feel an immediate engagement and the car will creep if you let off brake..
    If you repeat this scenario without shifting to neutral but holding brake while stopped for a few sec in drive, when you release the brake the car will sit static until accellerator is applied at which time you will feel the progressive clutch engagement.
    So in my experience whenever I feel that telltale progressive clutch engagement I know it has come out of neutral idle logic.
    Will weld for beer.

        __________________________________________

        click to view fuel log View my fuel log 2014 Mirage SE 1.2 automatic: 45.3 mpg (US) ... 19.3 km/L ... 5.2 L/100 km ... 54.5 mpg (Imp)


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    I noticed it from the first time I drove it. I figure that it is a cost savings thing for Mitsubishi. It seems like it is something that is supposed to be on cars that have stop-start. Instead of changing the transmission programming because the cars in the USA do not have stop-start, they just came up with a catchy name to make it seem like a feature. It almost reminds me of my old Smart Fortwo. Those cars have an automated manual transmission and it put itself into neutral on every stop. This one only does it when you have been stopped for more than a few seconds. If you move quickly from the brake to the gas, there is a small jerk when the transmission engages. I can see how reviewers and even people taking it for a long test drive would be put off by it. I am used to it, but it does annoy me at times because I expected a CVT to be a lot smoother.

        __________________________________________

        click to view fuel log View my fuel log 2015 Mirage ES 1.2 automatic: 42.5 mpg (US) ... 18.1 km/L ... 5.5 L/100 km ... 51.1 mpg (Imp)


  12. #19
    Member bzacon's Avatar
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    I've noticed the same thing with the manual. It will roll to a perfect stop even on a slight uphill, but if I move the car at all from the point where it stops, it will begin to roll back.

    On the matter of cvt, I'm pretty sure it's still torque converted to reduce wear on what i would assume is a push belt, Hopefully someone can correct me if I'm mistaken, I've only driven the 5MT but I'm quite curious.

    Edit: after some more research, it IS a Jatco cvt (Nissan) which features a lock-up torque converter, and it's rated for double the horsepower of the 3A92 engine, so you probably couldn't get the belt to slip, as the transmission would know that the car is stationary and the torque converter would just warm up a little bit without turning the drive pulley 3000 RPM isn't getting very near peak torque yet so the risk of the push belt slipping is negligible unless for some reason it reduces clamping force on the belt when car is stationary. I doubt this would be the case however as there is no benefit to it. It is also dual-range, which provides an extremely wide ratio spread, enough to make 5mt owners like myself jealous of the minimum speed (and minimum highway rpm)

    MetroMPG linked a diagram on this other thread:
    http://mirageforum.com/forum/showthr...video-diagrams
    Last edited by bzacon; 04-21-2017 at 07:34 AM. Reason: new information found
    2014 Mirage GLX 5MT Plasma Purple
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  13. #20
    Where's the leak ma'am? Marklovski's Avatar
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    I think you have to be at a full stop cuz i brake uphill then let go and it rolls back. If i stop fully then its a different story.


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