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Thread: Enasave rotation pattern

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eggman View Post
    Excellent post, namco. Thanks for referencing a standard. Do you have any links to this information online?

    Thanks.
    Nope. Sorry. This is a legit certification you get for working as a mechanic. As far as getting this info online, we pay to get certified....



  2. #12
    Moderator Eggman's Avatar
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    I understand. I face the same situation with proprietary intellectual property. Someone put some measure of time & effort in developing standards, and I *suppose* deserves something in return...



    If you are unable to post further details without risking any copyright or trademark infringement, would it be possible to cite the standard in more detail - that is, title and publisher?

    Thanks again for the input.

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        click to view fuel log View my fuel log 2015 Mirage ES 1.2 manual: 50.0 mpg (US) ... 21.2 km/L ... 4.7 L/100 km ... 60.0 mpg (Imp)


  3. #13
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  4. #14
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    The recommended tire rotation today, of every 5k miles, HAS THE SOLE PURPOSE OF EMPTYING YOUR WALLET AND DISGUISING TIRE WEAR PATTERNS THAT SHOULD NOT BE THERE.

    As far as some secret information available only to techs taking tests. I took the first test in 1979 (it wasn't even NAISE then). Denying information to a consumer is a sorry practice and just creates mistrust between the customer, the tech and the business that advocates such practices.

    If your wheels are not properly aligned, you will NEVER achieve the best handling potential of your car. Reading here are Mitsubishi's corporate attitude towards those who were unlucky enough to get a DEFECTIVE REAR AXLE, means class action lawsuit. Sooner or later some sharp attorney will convince a judge of this fact and the corporate Morons who advocated this position will pay a price for their stupidity.

    Maybe it will never happen, but you can bet, until they fix this that they are paying every day, when some potential purchaser reads about it here and it affects the resale value of my car, which is cause for another lawsuit by a bored California attorney.
    Odometer over reading by Honda, fuel mileage falsification by numerous manufacturers. Defective airbags in 100 million vehicles, all boils down to short sighted AND STUPID CRIMINAL CORPORATE POLICY.

    The solid rear axle of a pickup truck has 0 caster, 0 camber, 0 toe. It could not be easier to calibrate any alignment machine on the planet by just hooking it up to that same rear axle occasionally as part of the calibration process. Doesn't even matter if the truck is in either direction, the reading will not change.

    AS AN INDEPENDENT REPAIR SHOP OWNER, I TOOK SPECIAL PLEASURE IN WALKING CUSTOMERS THROUGH THE PROCESS AND ALMOST UNIVERSALLY THEY APPRECIATED THE HONESTY AND CANDOR.

    What I post here is honest and unfiltered. Don't believe it? That's solveable by just ignoring me. Based on my experience since 1969, I don't like reversing the rotation of radial tires. I do like close monitoring of tread wear, with core wear issues addressed as soon as they can be quantified. Feed me that BS and you will get a verbal blast immediately.

    The whole dealership repair process is terribly flawed,designed to make the customer have NO access to the tech working on their car. I have been lied to by idiots at dealerships and called them out at the instant they assumed I was ignorant of the facts and they never prevailed.

    regards
    mech
    Last edited by deleted user; 04-18-2016 at 02:17 PM.

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        click to view fuel log View my fuel log 2015 Mirage de 1.2 manual: 55.7 mpg (US) ... 23.7 km/L ... 4.2 L/100 km ... 66.9 mpg (Imp)


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  6. #15
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    http://www.wikihow.com/Obtain-ASE-Certification

    It's available to anyone. I was certified almost when it came out in 1972 and scored 100% on automotive electrical systems, even though I was in body repair and paint. The sign was on the door of my repair shop, but my customers could have cared less BECAUSE they talked to me the OWNER, TECH, ACCOUNTANT, QUICK OIL CHANGE PERSON and any other job that needed attention.

    Dealership tech commission is less than 20% in most cases, they use teams with varying commission levels. You don't get the top dog unless your problem is really bad. In my shop you get the OWNER when you walked in the front door. When I started commission was 50%. Nowthe vast majority of income generated by techs is spend on layers of bureaucracy to KEEP THE CUSTOMERS FROM TALKING TO THE TECHS, which makes effective repairs impossible. Ever had a service writer actually record your communication? Ever had the tech call you for clarification of the symptoms of an issue they can not duplicate? Ever had an engine cut off but only once every 6 months problem that you actually FIXED, without and on board diagnostics?

    regards
    mech
    Last edited by deleted user; 04-18-2016 at 02:22 PM.

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        click to view fuel log View my fuel log 2015 Mirage de 1.2 manual: 55.7 mpg (US) ... 23.7 km/L ... 4.2 L/100 km ... 66.9 mpg (Imp)


  7. #16
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    Dont know why you went off on your little rant, but w.e.

    I dont have anything to post here for the TIA because I was certified years ago and no longer have axcess to the materials to "prove" recomended tire rotation procedures. It is what it is. As i said its a paid course to learn, just like getting an ASE is a paid test, its not free.

    And your OPINION that radial tires shouldnt be swapped sides isnjust that, an opinion. Not to get ****ty with you but ive met my fair share of old school mechanics who think they know a lot becaude "been there" but have not cought up with the times. Since 1972 the ase tests have changed as with new cars, new processes, the test must be updated. We had a russian in my shop who thought he knew all because he too was certified in the 1970s and newer techs who actually keep up with their certifications laugh at him for his lack of knowledge. Worse are old school mechanics who know dick about metallurgy and still use fire to loosen alignment parts so it can be adjusted and dont replace the part. Fire breaks down the hardening of those parts and causes serious issues. The only time you are taught to use fire now is if you need to get a part or bolt or nut loose to REPLACE it.

    By all means, call it what you will, not every shop lies to its customers or has bad communication between techs and customers, assuming such shows your predisposition and negativity towards todays work force. I will agree there are a lot of twats out there who dont know **** working on cars thinking they know all, but its not always the case.

    Both Michelin and Goodyear input their own data for recommended rotations into the TIA guidlines. Its test and road proven the tires will last longer if you follow said guidlines.

    My subaru got 30k miles out of a 20k warrentied set, so I got 10k miles over what the tires claim they are good for, every rotate I did the AWD X pattern. Also, every rotate I balance my tires, and I rotated every oil change which I did every 2000-2500 miles. I also did my diffs and trans every second oil change so 4000-5000. Considering how I drive, and "abuse" the car, youd never know it. The first part to die was the turbo and I got 92000 miles out of it, compared to other subaru sti owners who baby their car and they barely get 60k out of a turbo, obviously im doing something right.

    Old ways arent the best ways espexially when new research is done to counter old thoughts, thats how we grow as a society. It was once thought okay to reuse needles after a short glaze in a flame, times change and we relaized it wasnt good to do so as it caused issues and disease spreading....

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  9. #17
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    Also, the 5k standard claimed is because of how tires wear. Front tires literally turn the rears dont. I have loyal customers and after 5k or so, the fronts are 9/32 and the rear 10/32 both starting at 11/32nds. So the front drops 2/32nds while rear only 1/32. Mind you this is also a fwd car and a person who drive fairly normal (no excessive speed or cornering). So if we dont rotate every 5k, and say go to 10k, the difference front and rear is now 7 front 9 rear. If we keep going 5/8 3/7 1/6. So now you are buying 2 tires while the other 2 still have tread. If you had rotated, the tire wear would have been spread out over the set, making them last longer mileage wise.

    No rotates
    11/11 F/R
    9/10
    7/9
    5/8
    3/7
    1/6

    Rotates
    11/11
    9/10
    8/8
    6/7
    5/5
    3/4

    Both sets went the same distance. Would you rather have no tread front and half rear, or some front and rear? MD rec replace is 2/32nds, is get 5k more mileage based on this rough estimate and end up with 2/2 F/R as apposed to 5k miles before at 1/6, guess which is safer for the customer, the rotates. Add in side swapping and it extends it more. But companies that actually make tires dont know anything compared to an old school tech....

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    eulogylife (04-19-2016)

  11. #18
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    Ok, great points made by you both. Hopefully we can make our points and argue our positions without attacking each other.

    I'm glad for info that can be backed up not only by experience but with other sources as well. I may not like or agree with the source but it can at least give a more thorough explanation than what is typically found in a post on an enthusiasts forum.

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        click to view fuel log View my fuel log 2015 Mirage ES 1.2 manual: 50.0 mpg (US) ... 21.2 km/L ... 4.7 L/100 km ... 60.0 mpg (Imp)


  12. #19
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    For example I completely understand and agree with old mechanics argument against rotation, that it hides alignment problems.

    I appreciate Namco citing the source of his info - he's not just making things up.

    I have a lot to learn about cars, and there's a lot of good info about cars here. Please let's keep it to cars.

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        click to view fuel log View my fuel log 2015 Mirage ES 1.2 manual: 50.0 mpg (US) ... 21.2 km/L ... 4.7 L/100 km ... 60.0 mpg (Imp)


  13. #20
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    As someone who had been sitting so to speak on both sides of the fence, both old mech and namco bring valid points. Not necessarily one is right and another wrong, just different way of approaching the problem. Sort of is it right to paint front door grey or blue? both work as long as it gets painted.

    On FWD quite often I do not rotate tires, just keep running fronts until they get bold. Why? b/c when that happens (usually end of summer or early fall) 2 new tires will be put there, and car will have a decent set (2 new fronts and 50% on OEM rears) to last through winter. Then in spring if it looks like rears will last longer then to fall, move them to front. If not, go until fall and get new fronts. Old fronts go back.

    Part of it laziness (less work), part of that experience with bad timing on tire expiration (why do I have to throw a tire which would have gone another 10k?), part of it not wanting to get caught in intermittent weather with 4 bold tires. And it is usually cheaper to replace 2 tires; habit from younger years when it meant alot.

    Now this is not the best approach as with possible alignment issues due to design or pothole the lack of rotation could cause uneven wear, and due to lack of often cross rotation some of the tire threads will become progressively noisy.

    The only time I'd follow the recommended rotation patterns is when I want to get rid of all tires, and guesstimated time of the all 4 tire expiration will be well before bad fall weather, but this is just me.


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        click to view fuel log View my fuel log 2015 Mirage DE 1.2 manual: 46.4 mpg (US) ... 19.7 km/L ... 5.1 L/100 km ... 55.7 mpg (Imp)


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