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Thread: Top Tier gas : Healthier for your vehicles . Go to ...

  1. #11
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    Non E gas is scattered about in our area . Some towns / cities have it and others not a drop . That also
    applies to Top Tier .


    Last edited by cinder; 07-08-2016 at 05:11 PM.

  2. #12
    Senior Member HitShane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Top_Fuel View Post
    That would be great. Unfortunately you can't find 100% gasoline around here with a search warrant. I would love to see my car's mileage on ethanol-free fuel.
    Well, to answer your question it's 10% better lol as you have 10% more fuel and actually get what you are paying for :P Plus the octane rating isn't fudged with corn alcohol

    Quote Originally Posted by cinder View Post
    Non E gas is scattered about in our area . Some towns / cities have it and others not a drop . That also
    applies to Top Tier as well .
    We have some racing fuel here, but that is worthless unless you have a turbo or really stroked out engine :P

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    Here are the original 34 page results of why to use TOP TIER gas by the A.A.A.. https://s3.amazonaws.com/association...rt-FINAL-1.pdf .

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    Senior Member MightyMirageMpg's Avatar
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    You definitely won't get 10% better economy by switching too pure gasoline lol

    Ethenol is roughly 80% effective compared to gasoline. So you would get about 2% betterr, and that's if your engine is tuned tuned too take advantage of the extra bump in supplied push (inject 2% less)
    Last edited by MightyMirageMpg; 07-09-2016 at 04:23 AM.

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    Senior Member HitShane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MightyMirageMpg View Post
    You definitely won't get 10% better economy by switching too pure gasoline lol

    Ethenol is roughly 80% effective compared to gasoline. So you would get about 2% betterr, and that's if your engine is tuned tuned too take advantage of the extra bump in supplied push (inject 2% less)
    But, now take into account that ethanol absorbed some water and is now worthless. If the US didn't produce so much corn we wouldn't be having this conversation lol... Everyone lobbies their way into the cash grabbing business. Through laws or regulations things are forced upon us every day. Most of them aren't actually good for us.

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    Senior Member Cobrajet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MightyMirageMpg View Post
    You definitely won't get 10% better economy by switching too pure gasoline lol

    Ethenol is roughly 80% effective compared to gasoline. So you would get about 2% betterr, and that's if your engine is tuned tuned too take advantage of the extra bump in supplied push (inject 2% less)
    It is true that ethanol has about 20% less energy than gasoline, but it also reacts very differently when ignited. Gasoline is more explosive than ethanol, and an explosion is exactly what you want to have happen in an internal combustion engine. This is exactly the reason that ethanol is used to control knock in modern engines...it slows down the rate at which the mixture burns.

    Given this fact, it is not unusual to see much more than a 2% increase in mpg when going ethanol-free. Ethanol not only doesn't have as much energy as gasoline, but it also simply doesn't have the explosive burn characteristics.

    An engine can be designed to run very efficiently on ethanol alone. And an engine can be designed to run very efficiently on gasoline alone. It is trying to get an engine to run on a varying mix of BOTH that causes a loss in efficiency.

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    Senior Member MightyMirageMpg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HitShane View Post
    But, now take into account that ethanol absorbed some water and is now worthless.
    Little water in your gas never hurt anything.

    http://www.cherokeeforum.com/f2/clea...8/#post3277180

    Too answer your questions, in order...

    Yes Im serious, yes I've done this, yes it makes a difference.



    Quote Originally Posted by Cobrajet View Post
    It is true that ethanol has about 20% less energy than gasoline, but it also reacts very differently when ignited. Gasoline is more explosive than ethanol, and an explosion is exactly what you want to have happen in an internal combustion engine. This is exactly the reason that ethanol is used to control knock in modern engines...it slows down the rate at which the mixture burns.

    Given this fact, it is not unusual to see much more than a 2% increase in mpg when going ethanol-free. Ethanol not only doesn't have as much energy as gasoline, but it also simply doesn't have the explosive burn characteristics.

    An engine can be designed to run very efficiently on ethanol alone. And an engine can be designed to run very efficiently on gasoline alone. It is trying to get an engine to run on a varying mix of BOTH that causes a loss in efficiency.
    Let me say I agree with most of what you said..

    But you are forgetting multiple things..

    You simply can make more power on ethenol blended or pure fuels. This is long proven. you stated the reason why in your response.

    If you can make more power, it stands too reason you could move the same vehicle, with a smaller engine.

    Many cars now have octane sensors in them, which allow you too run any blend of any gas or any combined mixture you so feel fit too fill your tank with, with zero negative effect. This technology is far from new, and could be retrofitted onto any vehicle with fuel injection.

    The only downside too ethenol fuels, **in my opinion**, is the corrosiveness, and lack of long term stability.

    Now I know what your going too say, "that's not the point" and your right that was an awful straw man argument. The point your arguing is apples too apples, 2% or better. Well you might be right. I don't have any real data, but I can assure you that 2% is a lot closer than 10%.

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  11. #18
    Senior Member Cobrajet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MightyMirageMpg View Post
    Little water in your gas never hurt anything.

    http://www.cherokeeforum.com/f2/clea...8/#post3277180

    Too answer your questions, in order...

    Yes Im serious, yes I've done this, yes it makes a difference.





    Let me say I agree with most of what you said..

    But you are forgetting multiple things..

    You simply can make more power on ethenol blended or pure fuels. This is long proven. you stated the reason why in your response.

    If you can make more power, it stands too reason you could move the same vehicle, with a smaller engine.

    Many cars now have octane sensors in them, which allow you too run any blend of any gas or any combined mixture you so feel fit too fill your tank with, with zero negative effect. This technology is far from new, and could be retrofitted onto any vehicle with fuel injection.

    The only downside too ethenol fuels, **in my opinion**, is the corrosiveness, and lack of long term stability.

    Now I know what your going too say, "that's not the point" and your right that was an awful straw man argument. The point your arguing is apples too apples, 2% or better. Well you might be right. I don't have any real data, but I can assure you that 2% is a lot closer than 10%.
    For most engines, the increase in octane rating achieved by adding more ethanol quickly reaches a point of diminishing returns. This is why engines that are capable of running E85 generally get far lower mpg on this fuel...sometimes as much as 40% lower...than the exact same engine running E10 or pure gas. And this is despite all of the changes applied by the engine's computer. The ones I have driven also make less power on E85. The reduction in BTU content of ethanol cancels out any performance increase created by an increase in octane once a certain percentage of ethanol is reached. Again, this is with most engines. And it is why E85 has largely gone the way of the dodo, at least where I am. I haven't seen it for sale in ages. (EDIT: There are still three stations in my town that carry it, but I don't see why anyone would spend $2.90 a gallon on E85 to get 27 mpg when they could spend $2.49 on E10 and get 40 mpg)

    As I said, it is quite possible to make a very powerful engine that runs on pure ethanol. But for one that has to run on mixed fuels it is only possible for the electronics to compensate so much for these very different fuels.

    I have run an engine on E10 and run the same engine on pure gas. The car was a Geo Metro. Did I go from 40 mpg to 44 mpg? Maybe not...but IIRC it was pretty damned close!

    It is becoming increasingly obvious that America's experiment with ethanol as a motor fuel is failing, and I have long contended that it's continued use is little more than a political gift to the corn lobby which has been blessed by environmentalists.
    Last edited by Cobrajet; 07-09-2016 at 01:28 PM.

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    Senior Member MightyMirageMpg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cobrajet View Post
    For most engines, the increase in octane rating achieved by adding more ethanol quickly reaches a point of diminishing returns. This is why engines that are capable of running E85 generally get far lower mpg on this fuel...sometimes as much as 40% lower...than the exact same engine running E10 or pure gas. And this is despite all of the changes applied by the engine's computer. The ones I have driven also make less power on E85. The reduction in BTU content of ethanol cancels out any performance increase created by an increase in octane once a certain percentage of ethanol is reached. Again, this is with most engines. And it is why E85 has largely gone the way of the dodo, at least where I am. I haven't seen it for sale in ages. (EDIT: There are still three stations in my town that carry it, but I don't see why anyone would spend $2.90 a gallon on E85 to get 27 mpg when they could spend $2.49 on E10 and get 40 mpg)

    As I said, it is quite possible to make a very powerful engine that runs on pure ethanol. But for one that has to run on mixed fuels it is only possible for the electronics to compensate so much for these very different fuels.

    I have run an engine on E10 and run the same engine on pure gas. The car was a Geo Metro. Did I go from 40 mpg to 44 mpg? Maybe not...but IIRC it was pretty damned close!

    It is becoming increasingly obvious that America's experiment with ethanol as a motor fuel is failing, and I have long contended that it's continued use is little more than a political gift to the corn lobby which has been blessed by environmentalists.
    The government is on my side.

    https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/ethanol.shtml

    My method of calculation was correct but my value of 2% was wrong. E10 contains roughly 3.33% less energy, not 2

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    Senior Member Cobrajet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MightyMirageMpg View Post
    The government is on my side.

    https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/ethanol.shtml

    My method of calculation was correct but my value of 2% was wrong. E10 contains roughly 3.33% less energy, not 2
    That is nothing to be proud of. And the government has some truly bizarre ways of calculating mpg when ethanol is involved.

    Did you know that when calculating CAFE numbers for E85 vehicles the government only counts the 15% of E85 that is GASOLINE?

    Yes, with E85 vehicles, their mpg is calculated as miles per gallon of gasoline, not miles per gallon of fuel. Since there is only one gallon of gas in every 7.7 gallons of E85, it balloons the number up tremendously.

    If a car goes only 50 miles on 7.7 gallons of ethanol, the government calls that 50 miles per gallon! Look it up. It's true!



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