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Thread: Imagine if Mirage technology had been combined with Geo Metro simplicity!

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    Lightbulb Imagine if Mirage technology had been combined with Geo Metro simplicity!

    The pre "95" Geo Metro was/is an amazing eco car for city dwellers. It was barebones simple and it was this minimalist design (talk about driving a go-cart) that resulted in it's two most tremendous qualities:
    1) it got obscenely good gas mileage and
    2) it was ridiculously reliable (they could almost run forever and it is commonplace to find examples with 300,000 km that have had little more than a clutch replacement)

    The problem with a car like the Mirage is that it's WAY too complex to really live up to what the Metro was. It's loaded with luxuries and features... all of which add weight and create the potential for problems. Complexity is arguably justifiable in a luxury car where one spends a lot of money to make sure that all that complexity is durable and reliable but, by definition, that kind of indulgence is also a perfect example of the frivolous excess endemic in our society. All the added luxury features of my new Mirage (listed in a previous post) are certainly nice but lets face it... they aren't even remotely necessary and, I'm sure they are going to be a source of never-ending problems 10 years down the road (I already have an issue with an airbag light that is staying on). Do I really need 7 airbags and antilock brakes in the city? I don't think so. Is it too much work to reach across and roll down the window... not so much. I could go on, but you get the idea.

    It's too bad that people are so easily manipulated by a marketing machine that convinces them they have to have 10 times more than they really need to be happy. Can you imagine if all the "fat" in the Mirage had been trimmed off and the basic engine technology combined with an absolutely minimalist design? We could have gotten 1,000,000 km/L !!!!
    Ok...maybe not 1,000,000.


    Last edited by nternal1; 05-23-2015 at 09:58 PM.

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    I have nearly no luxury or features in my Daihatsu (see my garage or link in my signature) and I really like the features of my Space Star. Electric rear windows - perfect on the highway. I open the rear window on the right side a little bit and don´t need the air conditioning - how would you do this with manual windows? On the other side I will use it in summer when temperatures get higher than 25-30 °C. My girlfriends loves the heated seats at low temperatures and the back doors and the safety features give her a good feeling when I drive to work and back home. Furthermore the Space Star 1.0 is already the car with the best fuel economy that can be bought here in europe - I think mileage could only be better about 5-10 % without all the features, but is already better by 15-20 % compared to the Suzuki Swift/Geo Metro. Overall the Space Star is the most simple car with the least features that annoy me in daily driving such as an air conditioning that switches on itself (Hyundai), immediately beeping manual handbrake (all cars I tested, in the Space Star beeping starts after 10 seconds when using the handbrake while driving), awfully sounding turn indicator signal (Toyota) and much more .
    Last edited by 25Plus; 05-24-2015 at 06:15 AM.
    Mitsubishi Space Star 1.2:
    Daihatsu Cuore L251:

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        click to view fuel log View my fuel log 2015 Space Star Klassik Kollektion+ 1.2 manual: 67.5 mpg (US) ... 28.7 km/L ... 3.5 L/100 km ... 81.0 mpg (Imp)


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    The Mirage is the simplest car you can buy in North America right now. Any simpler, and it would certainly reduce sales. I would not want the car to be any simpler than it is now.

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    My mirages technology sold me on financing my first new car. I always wanted a leather steering wheel, cruise control, steering wheel controls, manual transmission, hatchback, fog lights, sunroof, Bluetooth, incredible mpg, easy to work on, rear wiper, arm rest, cup holders. All these features together are difficult to find, mirage only lacks a sunroof.
    2014 ES F5MBD aka 5MT. I am a full time Uber driver, if you want to drive for uber DO not sign up without my referral code for a bonus .

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        click to view fuel log View my fuel log 2014 Mirage ES 1.2 manual: 44.8 mpg (US) ... 19.1 km/L ... 5.2 L/100 km ... 53.9 mpg (Imp)


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    Quote Originally Posted by ahintofpepperjack View Post
    The Mirage is the simplest car you can buy in North America right now. Any simpler, and it would certainly reduce sales. I would not want the car to be any simpler than it is now.
    And THAT is the most disturbing part. When I criticize the fact that the Mirage has too much fat I'm not criticizing the car. I'm criticizing a society that has been so deeply corrupted by marketing that they have lost all sense of values. I'm not saying that the features of the Mirage aren't nice but for the "greeness" of a car to be relegated to the absolute lowest priority is highly disturbing. The fact that the early (super eco) Geo Metro was discontinued and there was nothing like it for almost 20 years because the general public couldn't give a crap that it polluted half as much as the average car on the road speaks volumes. There will always be people who want the features but, given a choice between green and luxury I choose green. The average person talks a good game about caring about the world they live in but, when push comes to shove, they are willing to sacrifice ZERO to put their money where their mouth is. When extinction comes it will be well deserved.
    Last edited by nternal1; 05-25-2015 at 02:50 AM.

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    I think the Mirage has absolutely no needless fat. With an empty weight of 850 kg it is 100-150 kg lighter than most other cars of that size. Only the Suzuki Celerio weighs a little bit less but is smaller, has worse aerodynamics and is not as safe as the Mirage.

    I would have bought a car like the Honda Insight of the first generation at once, but, as mentioned, there is apparently absolutlely no market for such cars. A drag coefficient of 0,2 should be possible today, you would not even have to add a hybrid drivetrain either to get the best mileage of all production cars.

    But, I have to say it too, the problem is our society. We will go on as today, 90 % slaves of a financial system they don´t even understand but working only to follow up very selfish purposes. The richest five percend alone could pay all debts only with their interests without renouncing something. But nothing will change. The "poor" always try to catch up with the rich and the rich always fear to lose even a cent.
    Mitsubishi Space Star 1.2:
    Daihatsu Cuore L251:

        __________________________________________

        click to view fuel log View my fuel log 2015 Space Star Klassik Kollektion+ 1.2 manual: 67.5 mpg (US) ... 28.7 km/L ... 3.5 L/100 km ... 81.0 mpg (Imp)


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    I'm not sure the Mirage will be any less reliable than the Metro. Modern engine controls keep them pretty clean, so fewer engine problems, we run cleaner gas than we used to, and the transmission is a simple design too. There is no new/untested engine tech used (e.g. unproven direct injection or turbo), and the model has had time to get the bugs worked out. On my last car (2003 Ford), it is true that things started to fail near the end - one heated seat, one fog light burnt out . . . that's about it for "luxury" items . . . and when they failed after 10 years I was no worse off than if I didn't have those things. Most expense was wear items (brakes, CV joints, bearings, battery), and that which was caused by corrosion. The way I see it, I'll enjoy the creature comforts of the Mirage for 10 years, and if I need to fix something, then it will be good for another 10 years. Power windows might cost more to fix than hand cranks, but I doubt they are significantly less reliable. Airbags and good steel beams can save my life, or that of a passenger - I don't mind paying what they cost.

    Unfortunately, we cannot know what new cars will have "legendary" reliability, and as the stockbrokers say "past performance is no guarantee of future performance". Still, even if I could buy a brand new 1987 Honda Civic, I'm not sure I would, given the lack of modern safety features, fuel injection, emissions controls, and corrosion prevention.

    In summary - I suspect the Mirage drivetrain is as reliable or better than the Metro, the comfort/convenience stuff is reliable enough, and the safety features are worth every penny if they are needed (and, unfortunately, for someone they will be needed). They don't make 'em like they used to - they make 'em better.

        __________________________________________

        click to view fuel log View my fuel log 2014 Mirage SE 1.2 manual: 45.0 mpg (US) ... 19.1 km/L ... 5.2 L/100 km ... 54.1 mpg (Imp)


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    Quote Originally Posted by nternal1 View Post
    And THAT is the most disturbing part. When I criticize the fact that the Mirage has too much fat I'm not criticizing the car. I'm criticizing a society that has been so deeply corrupted by marketing that they have lost all sense of values. I'm not saying that the features of the Mirage aren't nice but for the "greeness" of a car to be relegated to the absolute lowest priority is highly disturbing. The fact that the early (super eco) Geo Metro was discontinued and there was nothing like it for almost 20 years because the general public couldn't give a crap that it polluted half as much as the average car on the road speaks volumes. There will always be people who want the features but, given a choice between green and luxury I choose green. The average person talks a good game about caring about the world they live in but, when push comes to shove, they are willing to sacrifice ZERO to put their money where their mouth is. When extinction comes it will be well deserved.
    In the UK the Mirage is marketed first and foremost on its eco credentials - unlike the US it's not priced cheaply; A top spec CVT auto is a little shy of £13,000 on the road. That's a lot of cash and one of the main reasons it's been savaged by the UK press.

    I see where you're going with the point about the Metro but I think you're falling into the trap of being nostalgic about older, simpler and lighter cars.

    Let me take my i10 as an example. Its not actually that old - about 7 years or thereabouts. On paper it looks like a good eco-choice and in many ways it is. It's simple, reliable, easy to fix and has a little 1.1 engine and 5MT. However, in the real world its eco image starts to slip - despite being a little tot its kerb weight is around a metric tonne and my average mpg is around 43(imperial) around town and around 53mpg (imperial) on a gentle run if I baby it. And this is on a car that has significantly less space, equipment, size and performance than a Mirage.

    Stepping back further, my little Fiat was even smaller and even more basic - and as a result weighed around ~750kg. It would return around 37mpg town and 45mpg on a run. It had no safety kit (no airbags, ABS, pretensioning seatbelts, traction control or anything). Its performance (or lack thereof) in a crash is chilling.

    As such I think the 'bloat' you perceive in the Mirage's weight is in fact concession towards safety - you need lots of strong, high-tensile steel to build a good crash structure and I think Mitsubishi should get credit for doing it for such a small weight penalty and (at least in the UK) not kowtowing to the 'more, more, more!!!' mentality. Infact I would venture (and this is conjecture, I admit), that removing 'luxury' goods from the car wouldn't save as much weight as you may believe - But then I'm not classing safety items as luxury - you and I may disagree on this, but I think that ABS, TCL, stability control and multiple airbags are big plus points. I've had situations at city speeds in previous cars where ABS and TCL have prevented an accident when something unexpected has happened, and if the worst did happen and I did ever run into something, I'd sooner kit an airbag than the steel-cored rim of a steering wheel or 'B' pillar...

    Now, yes... I realise the point you're making is not quite the same as the one i'm answering, but to nudge the mass of consumers towards a more responsible and less materialistic mindset, one has to present an attractive and practical alternative to get momentum going. I think the mirage (and the current crop of small city cars) are starting to do this... 'eco' is becoming attractive.

    I'll leave aside the whole existential/eco/corporate/gaia question aside - As has been said in another thread - that is an interesting and important debate, but it's a hugely emotive and impassioned one and not well suited to a cracking little forum about a cracking little car.

        __________________________________________

        click to view fuel log View my fuel log 2014 Mirage 3 CVT 1.2 automatic: 47.9 mpg (US) ... 20.4 km/L ... 4.9 L/100 km ... 57.5 mpg (Imp)


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  12. #9

    simplicity & sales

    Quote Originally Posted by ahintofpepperjack View Post
    The Mirage is the simplest car you can buy in North America right now. Any simpler, and it would certainly reduce sales. I would not want the car to be any simpler than it is now.
    Surprisingly, the Canadian base Nissan Micra is even simpler than the base Mirage: it has wind-up windows all around, manual side mirrors, 1 less airbag, no USB connector, no rear spoiler, etc. Neither base car gets A/C here.

    But it's out-selling the Mirage by more than 2 to 1 at the same starting price, with about half the Mirage's warranty coverage period, and lower fuel economy.

    (Though the Micra's sales success is based on a number of factors: larger dealer network, more and cleverer marketing, arguably more attractive styling, plus the automotive press just loves its better steering/handling and zippy 109 hp engine -- there hasn't been a single negative review.)

        __________________________________________

        click to view fuel log View my fuel log 2014 Mirage ES 1.2 manual: 63.2 mpg (US) ... 26.9 km/L ... 3.7 L/100 km ... 75.9 mpg (Imp)


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    some of the Luxury's that your talking about are mandated buy law at least here in the states. ABS, airbags and ESC.



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