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Thread: Mirage turbo 1.1, 1.2L or 1.0L for the U.S.? Some recent chatter from Mitsu execs

  1. #21
    Administrator MetroMPG's Avatar
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    Ha! Yup. I actualy test drove one once! I was considering buying it. I even tried out both power/economy ranges.

    Fun to drive it like an 8 speed. Shift shift shift shift shift shift shift shift shift shift shift...


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        click to view fuel log View my fuel log 2014 Mirage base ES 1.2 manual: 54.0 mpg (US) ... 23.0 km/L ... 4.4 L/100 km ... 64.9 mpg (Imp)


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    I wonder if Mitsubishi could build a narrow angle V4? The Volkswagen Vr6 is a 15 degree V6 that is functionally the same as an inline six (single head, similar balance characteristics) but is short enough to put in the car sideways.

    The V4 engines I've seen are very short, but since they were in motorcycles, they weren't as big as the Mirage engine. (VFR 800, Anyone?)

    Another option is to simply make the three cylinder bigger. If Triumph can get away with a 2,300 cc three-pot, surely Mitsubishi can make a 1.6?

    I just don't like turbos.

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    Moderator inuvik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tinker1980 View Post
    I wonder if Mitsubishi could build a narrow angle V4? The Volkswagen Vr6 is a 15 degree V6 that is functionally the same as an inline six (single head, similar balance characteristics) but is short enough to put in the car sideways.

    The V4 engines I've seen are very short, but since they were in motorcycles, they weren't as big as the Mirage engine. (VFR 800, Anyone?)

    Another option is to simply make the three cylinder bigger. If Triumph can get away with a 2,300 cc three-pot, surely Mitsubishi can make a 1.6?

    I just don't like turbos.
    I suppose they could but due to the 3 cylinders having a tendency to be unbalanced especially at lower rpm's I would imagine vibration could be an issue. The only difference between the 3A90 1.0, 3A91 1.1, 3A92 1.2 is the stroke. They all have the same bore.

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        click to view fuel log View my fuel log 2015 Mirage ES 1.2 automatic: 40.6 mpg (US) ... 17.2 km/L ... 5.8 L/100 km ... 48.7 mpg (Imp)


  5. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tinker1980 View Post
    I wonder if Mitsubishi could build a narrow angle V4? The Volkswagen Vr6 is a 15 degree V6 that is functionally the same as an inline six (single head, similar balance characteristics) but is short enough to put in the car sideways.

    The V4 engines I've seen are very short, but since they were in motorcycles, they weren't as big as the Mirage engine. (VFR 800, Anyone?)

    Another option is to simply make the three cylinder bigger. If Triumph can get away with a 2,300 cc three-pot, surely Mitsubishi can make a 1.6?

    I just don't like turbos.
    V4 would have much worse thermal efficiency, much higher friction drag and more expensive to build. New engine development would cost a fortune, GM spent billions developing new ones so did Ford.

    The easiest solution would be turbo or fitting already certified 4B11 engine. If it doesn't fit 4A92 which has excellent FE and used on Lancers in other markets. Turbo would likely be the easiest solution.

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        click to view fuel log View my fuel log 2015 Mirage DE 1.2 manual: 46.4 mpg (US) ... 19.7 km/L ... 5.1 L/100 km ... 55.7 mpg (Imp)


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    Quote Originally Posted by inuvik View Post
    I suppose they could but due to the 3 cylinders having a tendency to be unbalanced especially at lower rpm's I would imagine vibration could be an issue. The only difference between the 3A90 1.0, 3A91 1.1, 3A92 1.2 is the stroke. They all have the same bore.
    if the 1.2 engine was bored to an 80mm bore, it would be a 1.4 liter engine. 5mm over would be a bit much, but it's doable - Chevy smallblock engines range from 265 to 400 cubic inches, and they all use the same block. (But different cranks)

    I don't think the vibes would be that big a deal either. The engine would vibrate at idle, of course. Mine does. But I can't feel it in the car. Inline 4 cylinder engines have vibration issues as well.

    Cyclopathic - Don't dismiss the narrow angle V4 so quickly - as far as balance and thermal efficiency go, it's the same as an inline 4. One cylinder head. The angle between the cylinders would be only 15 degrees - by comparison, a Harley-davidson engine is 45 degrees. The reason for this is to make the overall engine length shorter, while keeping the same number of cylinders and the same general characteristics of the inline engine.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VR6_engine

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tinker1980 View Post
    Cyclopathic - Don't dismiss the narrow angle V4 so quickly - as far as balance and thermal efficiency go, it's the same as an inline 4. One cylinder head. The angle between the cylinders would be only 15 degrees - by comparison, a Harley-davidson engine is 45 degrees. The reason for this is to make the overall engine length shorter, while keeping the same number of cylinders and the same general characteristics of the inline engine.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VR6_engine
    I am familiar with the VR history, and I know that they managed to get it working with 2 camshafts only. Still more valve control hardware. In case of say Aprilia RSV4 or Honda V4 (VF800/1200 or ST1100/1300/Pan Euro) they suck MPG-wise when compared to inlines due to higher thermal losses (2 banks of cylinders) and mechanical losses.

    With respect to thermal efficiency, I3 is inherently more efficient that I4 (ideal single cylinder displacement ~500cc), and I4 is inherently more efficient than V4. If you look at mechanical losses I3 has less than I4 and I4 has less than V4.

    I suppose you could make similar argument on I1/I2 thumper and P-twin engines, but they have issue with balance and require balance shafts with big losses. I3 is easier, because it is a half of I6. I6 is balanced alone all 3 axis, I3 is alone 2: vertical and lateral and can be easily balanced alone longitudinal with flywheel/pulley cutouts.

    BTW there is a reason why VW ditched VR engines in favor or turbo, read this:
    http://blog.caranddriver.com/the-slo...lkswagen-vr-6/

    Quote Originally Posted by Tinker1980 View Post
    if the 1.2 engine was bored to an 80mm bore, it would be a 1.4 liter engine. 5mm over would be a bit much, but it's doable - Chevy smallblock engines range from 265 to 400 cubic inches, and they all use the same block. (But different cranks)
    3A engine has 83mm bore pitch, 80mm bore is not doable.
    Last edited by cyclopathic; 04-13-2016 at 12:31 PM.

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        click to view fuel log View my fuel log 2015 Mirage DE 1.2 manual: 46.4 mpg (US) ... 19.7 km/L ... 5.1 L/100 km ... 55.7 mpg (Imp)


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    Another pub on possible turbo future:
    http://www.autonews.com/article/2016...charged-future

    They are taking about new SUV slotted btw Outlander and Outlander Sport with 1.5L turbo at 2018, and turbo 1.1 on Mirage at redesign.
    At a make meeting on Sunday, Mitsubishi executives told American dealers that a series of turbocharged engines is on the way to the United States, led by a 1.5-liter engine that is scheduled to make its debut in a new midsize crossover in 2018.
    Mitsubishi executives said the company is considering a turbocharged 1.1-liter engine for the next generation of the Mirage and Mirage G4 subcompact cars, plus a larger turbocharged engine for the next generation of the Outlander three-row crossover. Those three revisions are scheduled to hit the market around 2019
    I supposed we'll see in 2.5 years or so.

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        click to view fuel log View my fuel log 2015 Mirage DE 1.2 manual: 46.4 mpg (US) ... 19.7 km/L ... 5.1 L/100 km ... 55.7 mpg (Imp)


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    Quote Originally Posted by cyclopathic View Post
    I supposed we'll see in 2.5 years or so.
    I wonder how the fuel economy scandal will affect the company and plans like this.

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        click to view fuel log View my fuel log 2015 Mirage ES 1.2 manual: 50.0 mpg (US) ... 21.2 km/L ... 4.7 L/100 km ... 60.0 mpg (Imp)


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    Automotive News updated their Future Product Pipeline Mirage page on 08-31-2017, repeating their forecast that "A re-engineered Mirage should bow in 2019 and pick up a new 1.1-liter turbocharged three-cylinder engine."
    Tuques

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  14. #30
    Administrator MetroMPG's Avatar
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    Interesting!

    It would have been good if they'd indicated the source of that info -- obviously they can't reveal identity, but did the info come from a dealer, corporate (which country), etc.?


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        click to view fuel log View my fuel log 2014 Mirage base ES 1.2 manual: 54.0 mpg (US) ... 23.0 km/L ... 4.4 L/100 km ... 64.9 mpg (Imp)


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