HOW-TO: Stereo / Speaker / Amp Installation (Radio/Speaker/Inner Door Trim Removal)

[91cavgt]

Namco, please tone down your rhetoric. Why the personal attacks? As I have already stated, the Mirage uses 20-22 gauge wire on the speakers, not 18 gauge. Take the door panels off for yourself and you will see. As far as why I am sticking to the whole wire size matters argument is because it does. Oh, and I do not own a car audio business either but I did go to school, aced the 2 electrical clases, and have an ase certification in electrical repair.

[cyclopathic]

Guys guys.. Can we all get along without poking each other eyes?

We don't really want to get this thread locked, do we?

[91cavgt]

Caution, science material ahead.


The human ear can hear a lot and can distinguish a lot, but only in narrow db(decibel) ranges. If you get too quiet, say below about 60 db it gets harder to distinguish differences in sound. Same goes for louder sounds. Once you get over about 110 db or so of full range sound, the ear itself will start to have difficulties in translating what is heard by the brain. So, once you go over about 110 db of full range sound, your brain starts to perceive distortion even when there may not be any distortion present, not to mention at some frequencies 110 db is the threshold for pain. A good way to tell if you have hit this threshold is to put on hearing protection without changing the volume. If the sounds are suddenly clear and the distortion went away then it was in fact not the speakers distorting but it was your ears not being able to translate what they were hearing effectively to the brain. I will get back to this paragraph shortly as to it's importance.

Speakers are rated at a sensitivity level. Either 1 watt/meter or 2.83 volts/meter (basically the same) and is a good representation of how effecient a speaker is. Average aftermarket speakers are approximately 90 db/watt with some being higher and some being lower. In order to increase the volume by 3 db, you need to double the power going to the speaker. So giving the speaker 2 watts of input power instead of 1 will yield a 93 db peak. If you keep going on this path, when you get to 128 watts of input power then you are sitting at 111 db which, for some frequencies, is over the threshold for pain as outlined in the first paragraph.

So, if you have your amps maxed out sending 150 watts rms to your speakers, the threshold of pain limit has already been exceeded, then how are you going to perceive any difference in sound caused from a size difference in the wire? The answer is the human ear can't. It is physically impossible at those levels.



Now as to the speaker wire size argument. Yes, I will agree that for very short runs, you will not see much of an improvement from going from 20 gauge wire up to say 16 gauge wire. Very few people will actually be able to tell the audible difference in sound between the 2, and just about no one would be able to tell a difference in sound at normal volumes with the typical background noises seen in an automobile environment. However, there is a LOT more going on here besides just what you hear. Namco, you stated that you saw with your test equipment a 0.1 amp difference between using 18 gauge wire vs. 12 gauge. First off, I agree that 12 gauge wire is over kill and should not be used for those power levels for your typical full range speaker. But what does that 0.1 amp difference mean? It means there was more resistance. Resistance is not just a number to be thrown around. Resistance in the real world, the more you have, turns into heat. Not just in the wire, but also in the amplifier. The higher the resistance, the less power is going to make it to the speakers, the hotter the amp is going to be running while it is trying to push the power through the wire (for a lack of better terms).

So your results even show that the smaller the wire, the higher the resistance. If speaker wire size does in fact not matter than what don't automotive manufactures install 24 gauge wire for all of the speakers in cars? After all, the bean counters would love to save a couple of bucks on every car, but electrical engineers know better and put their foot down. The answer is due to resistance. Running wire that small would negatively effect the electronics(radio/amp) in the car and cause more heat which would decrease the lifespan of the electronics and it would also potentially introduce premature corrosion in the wires.

I make no more or less money if people buy or don't buy wires. I make no more or less money if people choose one brand of speaker over the other. I am on this board to try to help educate others, to talk about the Mirage, and to share in our love of cars. What no one likes here, or on any other boards are personal insults. I have asked you nicely twice to tone down your rhetoric. Can we have a civilized discussion without throwing insults around?

[cyclopathic]

@91cavgt

Here is a link to audio test samples, take a look: http://www.audiocheck.net/soundtests_headphones.php

10G may be overkill, but you need to consider that audio isn't only about power transfer but about distortion too. I had wired home systems and there was detectable improvement in going to 10G on 20'+ runs. 10' of 22G will have 0.161 ohms of resistance, and a set of Pioneers we put in had 2.77 ohm static resistance. Would not effect power transmission much but enough to increase THD %. Not that it is worth rewiring at least prior to getting amp set up.

[namco]

Now as to the speaker wire size argument. Yes, I will agree that for very short runs, you will not see much of an improvement from going from 20 gauge wire up to say 16 gauge wire. Very few people will actually be able to tell the audible difference in sound between the 2, and just about no one would be able to tell a difference in sound at normal volumes with the typical background noises seen in an automobile environment. However, there is a LOT more going on here besides just what you hear. Namco, you stated that you saw with your test equipment a 0.1 amp difference between using 18 gauge wire vs. 12 gauge. First off, I agree that 12 gauge wire is over kill and should not be used for those power levels for your typical full range speaker. But what does that 0.1 amp difference mean? It means there was more resistance. Resistance is not just a number to be thrown around. Resistance in the real world, the more you have, turns into heat. Not just in the wire, but also in the amplifier. The higher the resistance, the less power is going to make it to the speakers, the hotter the amp is going to be running while it is trying to push the power through the wire (for a lack of better terms).

So your results even show that the smaller the wire, the higher the resistance. If speaker wire size does in fact not matter than what don't automotive manufactures install 24 gauge wire for all of the speakers in cars? After all, the bean counters would love to save a couple of bucks on every car, but electrical engineers know better and put their foot down. The answer is due to resistance. Running wire that small would negatively effect the electronics(radio/amp) in the car and cause more heat which would decrease the lifespan of the electronics and it would also potentially introduce premature corrosion in the wires.

I make no more or less money if people buy or don't buy wires. I make no more or less money if people choose one brand of speaker over the other. I am on this board to try to help educate others, to talk about the Mirage, and to share in our love of cars. What no one likes here, or on any other boards are personal insults. I have asked you nicely twice to tone down your rhetoric. Can we have a civilized discussion without throwing insults around?

No. The .01 difference in amps wasn't from changing the wire. I measured the amplifiers output at the positive and negative and then again at the door using the same test tone for both checks. The difference was .01 of a difference which isn't anything at all.

As you said, how can you tell the difference with it being so painfully loud, easy, using a distortion detector. OR, instead of using ear protection, simply walk away from the car at distance. Also at lower volumes there is no issue, which it shouldn't because less power you use, makes even more for the case of NOT upgrading the stock wire.

As I've said, I have a distortion detector, SMD-DD1, if you have ever heard of it, if not, google it. Its as accurate as using an oscilloscope and someone who doesn't work for the company actually put it next to an oscilloscope to see if it will accurately detect distortion in quite a few tests, and the distortion detector was flawless, making it great for someone who cannot afford a crazy priced oscilloscope, like myself. With the small wire, there was no distortion, even with putting more power than it should technically handle.

Namco, you seem to know a bit about electricity and electronics. I'm curious to know where did you study?

I didn't go to college, nor any school like 91cavgt. I simply used books you can pick up at a library for next to nothing and studied. I do have my electrical ASE for mechanics but that's not really what this is all about.

MOST people on this website, are NOT going to be running enough power to their speakers to need a wire upgrade, therefore there is literally NO POINT in an upgrade as I've been stating. Maybe if they were running the power levels that I am in my STI, even then they don't need to go much bigger, 18 gauge will work just fine.

[Eggman]

I am impressed with how much info there is to learn here about speaker wire! What a great resource this is.

[91cavgt]

No. The .01 difference in amps wasn't from changing the wire. I measured the amplifiers output at the positive and negative and then again at the door using the same test tone for both checks. The difference was .01 of a difference which isn't anything at all.

As you said, how can you tell the difference with it being so painfully loud, easy, using a distortion detector. OR, instead of using ear protection, simply walk away from the car at distance. Also at lower volumes there is no issue, which it shouldn't because less power you use, makes even more for the case of NOT upgrading the stock wire.

As I've said, I have a distortion detector, SMD-DD1, if you have ever heard of it, if not, google it. Its as accurate as using an oscilloscope and someone who doesn't work for the company actually put it next to an oscilloscope to see if it will accurately detect distortion in quite a few tests, and the distortion detector was flawless, making it great for someone who cannot afford a crazy priced oscilloscope, like myself. With the small wire, there was no distortion, even with putting more power than it should technically handle.



I didn't go to college, nor any school like 91cavgt. I simply used books you can pick up at a library for next to nothing and studied. I do have my electrical ASE for mechanics but that's not really what this is all about.

MOST people on this website, are NOT going to be running enough power to their speakers to need a wire upgrade, therefore there is literally NO POINT in an upgrade as I've been stating. Maybe if they were running the power levels that I am in my STI, even then they don't need to go much bigger, 18 gauge will work just fine.

My bad, I saw that you posted 24.4948 amps and thought that is what you had tuned your system to. I went back and re-read your post and saw that you tuned it to 24.4, then measured a 24.39 amp reading at the speakers, hence 0.01 amp drop. But once again, that is caused from resistance on 18 gauge wire. This resistance would be higher with 20 gauge wire.


I have never used a distortion detector to set gains on amps, because the gains on the amps are intended to be set to match the voltage output of the deck you are using. As you stated, a simple multimeter can do that job. When you tune the amp to match the voltage output of the deck you are using, you end up with a lot of headroom because you are not maxing out the amp like you said you did with the distortion detector. Since personally I prefer sound quality systems instead of spl systems, headroom is more important to me than making sure my amps are pumping out all they are designed to put out.

A couple of questions you haven't answered yet is when you were using this distortion detector, what source material were you using and was your amp set to full pass, high pass, or low pass?

[mitsumi]

i just have a question. will the speaker for this boom box work as a woofer when used in our mirage? do i still have to use an amplifier for it to work?

because i still have my old boom box but its not working anymore so i was thinking of using the speakers. it not the exact model but the built is the same. its a JVC.

[91cavgt]

i just have a question. will the speaker for this boom box work as a woofer when used in our mirage? do i still have to use an amplifier for it to work?

because i still have my old boom box but its not working anymore so i was thinking of using the speakers. it not the exact model but the built is the same. its a JVC.

The speaker in the side is considered the woofer. You would still have to have some kind of amplifier on it and if you built a box for it, it would have to have the exact air space, porting(if the box is ported), and port length (once again, if the box is ported). Any deviation and it won't work as well.

A quick way to tell if it would help your sound is to put it in the car, then tune the car radio and this boom box to the same radio station. Adjust the car radio volume to your normal listening level, then slowly raise the volume up on the boom box. If it can't put out more than the stock speakers then it would be a waste of time to do anything with it. Otherwise, if it helps the sound then give it a shot! Consider it recycling!

[namco]

My bad, I saw that you posted 24.4948 amps and thought that is what you had tuned your system to. I went back and re-read your post and saw that you tuned it to 24.4, then measured a 24.39 amp reading at the speakers, hence 0.01 amp drop. But once again, that is caused from resistance on 18 gauge wire. This resistance would be higher with 20 gauge wire.


I have never used a distortion detector to set gains on amps, because the gains on the amps are intended to be set to match the voltage output of the deck you are using. As you stated, a simple multimeter can do that job. When you tune the amp to match the voltage output of the deck you are using, you end up with a lot of headroom because you are not maxing out the amp like you said you did with the distortion detector. Since personally I prefer sound quality systems instead of spl systems, headroom is more important to me than making sure my amps are pumping out all they are designed to put out.

A couple of questions you haven't answered yet is when you were using this distortion detector, what source material were you using and was your amp set to full pass, high pass, or low pass?

The amp is the pioneer d800 which is a full range class fd amp for door speakers. It doesn't have a built in crossover, so my pioneer deh-80prs does that job. The SMD-DD1 comes with a test CD you play in your headunit (or oem system).

Even with you liking SQL over SPL, you can still get SPL at high volume levels....

Also, the SMD-DD1 (not to sound like a fanboy) has more than enough tracks on its test cd to set you up how you like (-db settings to get more sql). One test tone is used to check your headunits output, as many aftermarket decks will not go to max volume without distorting, for example my deh-80prs with the internal amp on distorts at 50/62, but when that's turned off I can go 62/62. Another headunit might only go to 35 and distort at 20. Then it wouldn't matter how you set your amp gains because even if it was matched, you would distort at your #. It can check the headunit for both full range speakers and subwoofer outputs (as each is tested with their own tone, i think its 40hz for subwoofers and 1khz for the front speakers as those two are said to use the most power and thus draw the most amps when being played.) Then, you hook the distortion detector up to your amp (if you have one) and play the other test track listed in the manual and you set your amps gains. I think it has both test signals at -0db, -5db, -10db, and -15db. Now granted, by setting everything up via distortion, if you always have a clean signal, you will always have clear audio. Its amazing how you can play 150watts of power and there is zero distortion. Granted, technically its not just checking for simply distortion, on an oscilloscope, when the wave starts to square off, even in the slightest, is when the SMD-DD1 tells you to chill out on your gain level. It literally wont let you have a signal that is degraded.

According to an online calculator, the length of wire of 18 gauge mixed with 150 watts at 2.7 ohms (polk mm6501) I am losing .02 db, anything under 1 db isn't audible to human ears (or is said to be) but as I said, even I couldn't tell when I ran the 12 gauge to each door. According to that same website, changing out the wire to 12 gauge and upping the feet in length netted me .01 of a loss, which is only .01 db difference between 18 gauge and 12 gauge. This is why I keep saying its not needed. And we are also talking high power systems.

And if you mean test material as in what music im listening to which is telling me no distortion, I listen to everything from EDM (i know its wrong to lump all the genre's together, but i dont feel like typing them all), hip hop and r&b, classical, oldies (60's), rock, metal, grunge, punk. pretty much I have at least 1 song from every genre i like. None of them sound horrible or distorted even at full volume.