At What Point would you Switch to an EV? The math of potential EV ownership in Quebec

[Spadesheart]

So I'm about to move to Quebec, the province of Canada with not only the cheapest electricity, but also the countries leading electric car rebates at 12000 CAD.

This brings down the cost of a Hyundai Ionic 5 for example From 56000 CAD to 44000 CAD tax in. If I really wanted to be barebones with cost, the Chevy Bolt would be 39000, but I'm going to use the Ioniq for my illustrations.

In comparison, this is obviously still much more expensive than a CVT Mirage, but when you start doing the math, it becomes surprisingly compelling.

According to the Quebec electric vehicles page, the average cost of charging a vehicle in Quebec costs around 200-300 CAD for 20000 km, and this is 97% clean energy. Considering where I'm moving, this would probably be closer to the 200 CAD. https://vehiculeselectriques.gouv.qc...isation-ve.asp

If I do the math on my Mirage(which frankly isn't equivalent to either in features, fit and finish) at an average fuel consumption of 5.5 L/100 km(which frankly is generous at this point) and assuming the average fuel cost remains around $2/L, that's a cost of 2200 CAD per 20000 km, a difference of around 2000 per 20000 km. And that fuel consumption would be much higher in something in the size of the Ioniq 5. Assuming the car lasts for at least the 200000 km range (which would probably be higher since there are so few moving parts), that is 22000 CAD in fuel consumption. and that's assuming fuel doesn't get more expensive.

If we do the math for an average new cross over which (on paper) consumes around 7.8 L/100 km in fuel, we're looking at a savings of 3120 per 20000 km, or 31200 over 200000 km. Less electricity cost, which in Quebec are incredibly stable considering the oversupply of hydro dams, that is a 20000 CAD savings over the Mirage, and a 29200 CAD savings to an equivalent vehicle to the Ioniq 5.

Not considering other maintenance costs at this point, if we factor in the cost of fuel over 200000 km, the vehicle would cost 24000 in total in comparison to the Mirage, and for an equivalent vehicle it would be 14800 CAD. At 15 K That's literally less than a brand new Mirage at this point. And the car would last longer more than 200000 km.

Add to this soon I will have to get a new car anyway as my Mirage is at 220000 km, and as much as I like Mary, I don't think she's lasting another 200000 km. And add to this new Mirages are stupidly expensive for what they offer, and the Mirage's used price is also inflated to probably 5-6000 CAD right now, benefitting me if I wanted to sell. And add to this the EV use case might actually be more compelling for me as I was considering doing Uber or doordash until my grasp of French was good enough to do otherwise.

I was really figuring my next vehicle was going to be a Ford Maverick since the functionality was so impressive, but when factoring in Fuel, Electric cars, especially in Quebec, are surprisingly cheap. What do you guys think? And it's much better for the environment to boot. So what do you think? When would you switch?

[Top_Fuel]

Throwing out some random thoughts...

I'm too lazy to do KM and CAD conversions right now...so I'll just talk in general terms. If you're getting ready to spend serious money ($25K+ USD) on a new car and you drive a fair amount, then spending a little more on an EV is worth considering. An EV will cost more than an internal combustion engine (ICE) vehicle...but if it's not that much more than it could be the better financial move to get an EV at this point (your numbers seem to back that up). I wouldn't buy a new ICE vehicle right now without running the numbers against a comparable EV like you are doing. It's hard to beat a new $10,000 USD Mirage, but I'm not sure we'll ever see those again.

Assuming that an EV makes financial sense on paper, let's put figures aside and talk EV reality for a minute.

How cold does it get there in the winter? EV range...well...it can suck in the winter. In some cases your battery range will be cut nearly in half. That 260 mile range EV might be down in the 130 mile range on colder winter days. Some EVs consume a lot of energy for cabin heat. Heated seats and heated steering wheels will keep you warm and use much less power than constantly heating the entire cabin. So if you would normally not care about those options, they are almost mandatory on an EV in a place with cold winters.

Do you have a garage? Again...it would make life a lot easier for you in the winter.

Do you have a place to charge an EV on your own property...or will you rely on commercial charging facilities? In the US, commercial charging stations charge roughly 3-4 times more for electricity compared to what you would pay for it at home. That will change your EV fuel cost over time.

Do you have a 240 Volt outlet to charge at home...or will you be limited to using a 120V outlet for charging?

What distances do you typically drive in a day?

I don't know what the car market is like in Canada. In the US, a used Mirage is worth more than ever. But almost every new EV (if you can find one right now) is MSRP. So any gain from the sale of your Mirage may be lost when you have to pay full sticker for an EV to replace it. Your EV govt incentives are higher up there...which works in your favor.

[mohammad]

Lets assume we ignore all features and compare the after tax after rebate ionic at 44,000 to the mirage base model at 18,000 after education and loyalty rebates. thats 26,000 more not counting the cost of a home charger if needed.

your saying that if you drive 20,000 km every year you would save 2,000 in fuel costs driving the ioniq. First off this number is fairly inaccurate. This assumes that you do all your charging both at home and at night. That is unlikely, lets say that 1/4 of those km are "road trips" where you do your charging at a public gas station.The Petro canada in quebec charges $0.45/MINUTE to charge. If we follow hyundais optimistic numbers and say it takes 6 minutes to charge 88km. To drive those 5000 Road trip km per year it would take 341 minutes of charge time thats another $155 to the cost of charging. But thats at an optimistic perfect speed. And if you get into the habit of going to starbucks to use the toilet while the cars charging and you leave it an extra few minutes whenever you are charging that could easily double your charging costs as you pay by the minute.

The other point to consider is the opportunity cost. The ioniq is 26k more, the average investment return in 10.67% according to S and P 500 return. that means that in 10 years your 26k becomes 72k. Instead if you are theoretically going to get back $20,000 over 10 years thats $166 a month or 32k. That means that assuming you are paying cash the true price difference is 40k cad.


The other concerns are The battery may catch fire: https://www.carcomplaints.com/news/2...-lawsuit.shtml

Also, the battery capacity warranty is 70% after 8 years. The vehicle only fast charges between 20-80%. The brand new range is 354k, That means that on a road trip 8 years from now when you fast charge to 80% you will have 354*.8*.7*.8 the last .8 is because we want to arrive at the next super charger with 20% charge left otherwise it won't fast charge. That means that your road trip would need to stop to charge every 160km. Thats a joke.. That also assume that you have ideal non winter conditions and dont use climate control.

The mirage doesnt have this pathetic range.

Even at a full charge and if you were willing to drive down to 0% that is 354*.7=247km of range. Thats a depressing number surly gets worse in winter.


The other big concern with EV's i like to bring up is that the battery is in the floor of the vehicle. Its been a long time problem with electric cars that things can puncture the battery. of all brands im not saying your mirage will hold up better when hitting things im just saying the mirage is less than half the price. thats a much cheaper insurance claim.

Finally id like to mention that insurance rates are probably different for the vehicles.

[mohammad]

If you're all about money. I encourage you to crunch the numbers on a new prius prime. 2500 quebec, 2500 federal incentive. The car becomes 35k after tax and rebate. if you do most of your driving within the electric range im sure you will come out ahead. If in a decade the battery degrades thats no problem you always have the gas engine. House looses power, want to go on a road trip, no problem just add gas. Forget to plug in your car? someone steals your home parking spot with the charger. no problem just add gas.

If you did all your driving within the 45km electric range which is do-able if your friends have a 120v charger at their homes and you may have a charger at work. then by your math you'd save 20k in gas costs over 10 years. making the prius prime 35-20=15k after 10 years making it 3k cheaper to buy than a mirage.

[Mark]

I am not going to speak for Canada, but nothing in life is free.

If the gas tax pays for roads & bridges, what type of vehicles should be able to use them?

[Fummins]

I actually looked up some pricing earlier just for sharts. I looked up a new dual motor model 3 and a rav4 prime(phev). Then I quit looking. I'm not in the market for a $45,000-80,000 vehicle. If I were I'd consider one. The only new car I'd consider at this point is a Mirage. That's pretty sad I know....

What makes the most sense to me is to just keep my turd pail going for the foreseeable future, or at least until someone runs into me. Why do you think your car with 200,000km won't last another 200? Unless it's rusting out I'd drive it til it dies then plunk in a new(used) heart. If it's gonna die of rust then why buy a new ev and expect it to last any longer? Wiring and corrosion don't make a great combo. I wonder how a 10-year-old Tesla in the French rust belt looks underneath?

We get zero provincial ev incentives over here. I don't think there are any more federal Tesla rebates. Some high range plug in hybrids (50km ev range I believe?) qualify for the same $5000 rebates as full ev's do. Regardless, I came up with roughly the same fuel prices, assuming prices are going to continue upwards. My turd has 299k kms(185k miles), I replaced the engine and transmission last summer with parts from low mileage(under 10,000km) 2017 wrecks. I can't remember exactly what I paid, around $12-1500 for both parts and I replaced them at home without a hoist easy enough. Even if I paid a shop it shouldn't have cost more than $1000-1200 labor(hopefully). I really don't think you can beat the cost of ownership for a Mirage. Everything is cheap and easy to do, including rear brakes. Finally...

I agree that a battery powered car puts out less tailpipe emissions than a gas powered one. But sadly batteries are no longer made of unicorn farts and rainbows. I won't argue that an ev is probably more tree hugger friendly than an escalade, excursion or an oil burning Kia. But that's a discussion for a different platform, like face crack.

I think comparing an ev, any ev to a Mirage isn't really a comparison. I'm not convinced I'd save a penny if I basically walked away from my Mirage and bought a new ev with the quebec rebates.
Lets say I go with the Ioniq5.
Pros:
-less wear on brake pads theoretically
-New fancy car
-Roomy
-Quiet
-Power
-Stuff
-Can charge at home(if you have a garage or driveway)
-Electricity would cost less than gas would in a comparable gas vehicle.(as mentioned in first post)
Cons:
-Big ass car payment
-Teething problems
-If you don't have a garage or driveway, you're stuck using public chargers.
-Limited range. Have to plan longer road trips and hope charging stations are functional.
-Range lowers as batteries degrade over time
-How long are batteries designed to last, 10 years? Then they can be worth more than the car is to replace>That'll probably change over time though as new battery tech comes along.


Now keeping the Mirage
Pros:
-It's paid for
-There's nothing mechanically wrong with it(other than rear brakes are "noisy". new parts are in the mail)
-It's reliable(now). These cars have been proven to be reliable, we have a handful at work with over 400k on the original drivetrain.
-Anything that can go wrong can usually be figured out doing a search or starting a post on this forum
-It's cheap to drive(for a non-ev)
-It's still paid for
-I don't care if I get a scratch or dent in it
-It's maneuverable
-I look like a poor person so people don't ask me for money
Cons:
-It's starting to show a little rust
-Paint is scratched up. But it's fine
-It has the lamest horn.
-It's got the typical small light car problems. Gets blown around in the wind.
-It's slow
-I'm far more likely to die in an accident than the distracted driver in the suv that runs into me

For me, I plan to
If you commute 100+km a day then yeah I get that fuel bill adding up quickly along with the extra oil changes. But all cars still have windshields and tires. I really have no idea but I assume a windshield and tires for most non-mirage vehicles (ev or not) will cost more, same with tires. This is just speculation though and I was once wrong.

Hopefully that made some sense. It's past my bed time.

[Cobrajet]

I might change to an EV when I can get a new one that is $20,000, charges in 20 minutes, and has a 200+ mile range.

[Top_Fuel]

If the gas tax pays for roads & bridges, what type of vehicles should be able to use them?

States are trying to figure out how to extract gas/road tax from EV owners. In Ohio, a yearly vehicle registration is around $60. For EVs and PHEVs, it's $200 a year. I ran the numbers and I would actually pay the state more if I bought an EV than the tax they would get from me at the gas pump driving my Mirage!

[Mark]

States are trying to figure out how to extract gas/road tax from EV owners. In Ohio, a yearly vehicle registration is around $60. For EVs and PHEVs, it's $200 a year. I ran the numbers and I would actually pay the state more if I bought an EV than the tax they would get from me at the gas pump driving my Mirage!

If there's a charging station in my entire county, I am not aware of it. I have no doubt electric vehicles may become more popular. A lot still needs to be done in the meantime, & some things will not change like the need for good roads (keeping them clear during the winter months).

I have a problem with well-paid politicians, who have excellent health care coverage & pensions dictating what I should do. Owning a Tesla may be great for them. They can pat themselves on the back for driving one when they aren't flying from place to place.

If a person wants to own one vehicle, a good hybrid makes more sense to me. If you own multiple vehicles, having an EV in your fleet would make total sense. Everyone's situation is different.

[defensivetackle88]

I would never understand why one family or someone or a couple, for realistic example, has two of the same exact car ie Toyota Prii (plural for Prius I think?)

Ford Maverick, and or Honda Accord/Tesla Model 3 in one household for examples make perfect sense as it has it own purpose to get by but 2 or more of the exact same car?! Idk why.