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Thread: Question on 14-15 vs 17+ CVTs

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Rogers View Post
    You're right, Dirk, and what you outline is along the lines of what I'm thinking. I feel sort of binary on this choice-- if I have to accept even one frill, then I feel like I might as well have them all.

    I.e., a 2017 ES seems like the most stripped model one can have. If I go to a 2015, I have to accept auto climate control. Ok, maybe that's not such a big deal because maybe that system is reliable enough that it doesn't really add any complication.

    But if I go to a 2018 ES, then I get a screen and a backup camera. I hate screens! And a backup camera seems totally unneeded in such a small car. So, if I accept that camera/screen, I might as well get the cruise, usb, forward collision monitoring, etc. Which means that a 2018 ES is almost the worst of all worlds-- I take on a frill I really don't want, but I don't get several that I do want.

    So, I guess my current order of preference is:

    #1: 2017 ES. The most stripped, but not seeing many of them around. For some reason, what few are listed are priced high. Maybe that will change-- I'll continue to look.

    #2: 2015 DE. As stripped as the 2017 ES except for auto climate controls. Lots of them for sale, many at good prices (even with low miles). I might favor the softer ride and I'm ok with the older styling. Don't want the auto climate control, but it might not be that big of a deal.

    #3: 2019 ES. Has the bluetooth, touchscreen and backup camera that I hate, but I get cruise (that I want). Last year of manual HVAC.

    #4: 2020+. Not that much worse (as far as frills) than the 2019. Gotta accept auto climate controls (but, hey, I would have to take that in the 2015!) and forward collision monitoring, but is that really all that much more stuff than the 2019? In exchange the car would be much newer. On the other hand, it would also be much more expensive.

    With that list in mind, I'm keeping an eye out for a 2017 ES that might pop up at a low price (seems unlikely anytime soon), or go for a $4-5K 2015 DE (of which I'm seeing several that look to be in good shape and have 90-110K miles).

    That's the current thinking, anyway. But since I'm just at the beginning of thinking about all this, I could change my mind at any time!
    Sounds like you have a good handle on the trim levels.

    I test drove the 2018 ES manual at my nearest Mitsubishi dealership, but they wanted approximately $13,800 OTD. I bought a brand new 2017 ES manual the following day from White Bear. I could care less about the added backup camera in 2018 (mandatory for all cars that year).
    $9,500 - White Bear's discounted price for most of that year.
    $9,000 - $500 off if you financed $10,000 with Ally
    $8,500 - $500 loyalty rebate
    $8,000 - $500 VIP rebate
    $7,500 - $500 Military rebate

    A brand new 2017 Mirage ES manual for $7,500-9,500 caught my attention. It made me ask, "how bad are these cars?"

    European car reviews and guys like Fummins working on a fleet of Mirages erased my doubts.

    Knowing what these cars were selling for new @ White Bear would make it hard for me to pay today's used car prices, too. Everything is more expensive these days, however. Even simple items like eggs, butter, pack of soda, and gas are double the cost of just a couple years ago.



  2. #22
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    I agree with all you say, Dirk. I can't believe the asking prices of some of the used 2018-2020 models out there. Not uncommon to see asking prices of the same (or even more) as a brand new one at White Bear right now. White Bear is close enough to me to do a purchase there, so I use that as my benchmark. Any used model has to be significantly under $17K, or I'm going to buy new.

    And if a used one is in the $10-$12K range, it has to be less that ~50K miles or, again, it probably makes more sense to pony up the extra $5-7K and get a new one.

    But for an extra 40-50K miles, I can find some nice-looking 2015's for $4-6K. I understand what you're saying about the risks, but that's part of the reason I'm looking at a Mirage rather than something like a Yaris.

    With the 3-cyl engine, ample space in the engine bay, and very simplistic design in general, I plan on doing all work (even major work) myself. Although not a master mechanic, I do have a fair amount of experience and am not afraid of doing even major work.

    But I don't want to do major (or even simple) work on an overly complicated car that practically requires engine removal to do something even very simple. And that's where the Mirage has a big advantage.

    I'm planning on retiring soon, and will have time to work on cars. As such, I'm planning on selling all my other cars (I have several) and buying two or three Mirages. I will have them long term and both my wife and I will drive them. When one breaks down, I'll rotate it into the garage and fix it while the others are driven.

    So, I understand the headaches that are possible when buying a cheap used car, but my hope is that I might get lucky, but if not, I'll dive in and figure it out. My plan is to know every inch of a Mitsubishi Mirage as I work on them over the years!
    Last edited by Jim Rogers; 11-17-2022 at 03:14 AM.

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  4. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark View Post
    Sounds like you have a good handle on the trim levels.

    I test drove the 2018 ES manual at my nearest Mitsubishi dealership, but they wanted approximately $13,800 OTD. I bought a brand new 2017 ES manual the following day from White Bear. I could care less about the added backup camera in 2018 (mandatory for all cars that year).
    $9,500 - White Bear's discounted price for most of that year.
    $9,000 - $500 off if you financed $10,000 with Ally
    $8,500 - $500 loyalty rebate
    $8,000 - $500 VIP rebate
    $7,500 - $500 Military rebate

    A brand new 2017 Mirage ES manual for $7,500-9,500 caught my attention. It made me ask, "how bad are these cars?"

    European car reviews and guys like Fummins working on a fleet of Mirages erased my doubts.

    Knowing what these cars were selling for new @ White Bear would make it hard for me to pay today's used car prices, too. Everything is more expensive these days, however. Even simple items like eggs, butter, pack of soda, and gas are double the cost of just a couple years ago.
    Unfortunately, those ultra-low White Bear prices seem to be a thing of the past. While they're a little cheaper than others, I'm not seeing any big discounts out of them. They seem to be pretty much at MSRP, while others are asking over the MSRP prices.

    The unfortunate thing is that I almost bought one back in those cheap days. I didn't end up doing it, and now I really regret it.

    However, I plan to follow Dirk's advice-- I'm not buying anytime soon as I think inflation is probably on it's way down. I'm thinking that by spring or summer, prices will be much lower.

    So, while I wait, I'll study and ask questions on this forum!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Rogers View Post
    Thanks for that info, guys.
    Also, the whole reason for the CVT-7's powerglide-like two speed auxiliary transmission is specifically to reduce the need for the belt to have to go to the more extreme ratio positions which is supposed to allow for greater reliability.

    Any insights as to my questions on the mechanisms of the different drive modes? Regardless of how useful they are, I'm still interested in how the transmission actually achieves the different modes. Different use of the two-speed auxiliary transmission? Different programming of ratios at the belt? Something totally different?

    Also wondering what the Ds switch at the shifter is connected to. Does it toggle something in the transmission itself, or does it go to a power control module that then regulates the transmission? If it goes to the transmission itself, do the 14-15 transmissions have the connector for it?
    I drive an 2018 SE with the DS, and I do notice the two speed "powerglide-like" transmission. It'll "shift" after 15 mph (I do not exactly recall which speed) but after that all the speed is on a single band.

    The DS feature is neat but I would not use it by nature of the CVT operating on a "band" although I've never built a CVT Transmission - I could imagine the CVT Band slipping, with the amount compression/engine brake generated by the motor in the DS gear selection.

    Everything below this is Cruise Control related and theoretical
    `Set` at 25 mph to `Acc` to 50 mph this will have a static rate of RPM's, but accelerating beyond 50mph will force the motor into the 4k+ range in order to accelerate in many cases. I will incrementally rock the `Acc`to slowly and economically "pur" the motor (and C.V.T.)to the desired speed. However, the cruise control is a lot more permissive towards lower RPM's when `Res` back to a faster than current speed. They may have tried to add performance by doing a high rev feature for the Cruise C. Acceleration on the C.V.T. instead of biting the bullet with our limited torque...You could be going nowhere fast.

    You may or may not be able to accelerate better with the accelerator pedal than with the cruise control. Wear and Tear is something to consider too.

    I think the C.V.T. has a very nice sound... I can hear it clearly when bleeping the `Acc` rocker switch!


    How CVT works
    Last edited by Dookaughs; 11-17-2022 at 03:41 AM.

  6. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Rogers View Post
    Unfortunately, those ultra-low White Bear prices seem to be a thing of the past. While they're a little cheaper than others, I'm not seeing any big discounts out of them. They seem to be pretty much at MSRP, while others are asking over the MSRP prices.

    The unfortunate thing is that I almost bought one back in those cheap days. I didn't end up doing it, and now I really regret it.

    However, I plan to follow Dirk's advice-- I'm not buying anytime soon as I think inflation is probably on it's way down. I'm thinking that by spring or summer, prices will be much lower.

    So, while I wait, I'll study and ask questions on this forum!
    I was just sharing what these cars were going for back then. I would say good deals exited from 2017 to April of 2021. I can't speak for prices before 2017, because a Mirage was not on my radar. I could have bought a 2021 Mirage ES manual for under $11,000 OTD @ White Bear (January - April of 2021), & then things really changed drastically. Sadly, I don't see deals like that coming back.

    I see the Mirage as an affordable, reliable, & economical car. If you take any of those three items away from it, it's not as appealing to me. Based on pricing alone, the Mirage would not be as appealing to me today. I wouldn't rule out looking at the Honda Fit or Toyota Yaris, but that's me.

    It's not a car that makes you go "wow" during a test drive. It does have a charm that grows on you over time, however.
    Last edited by Mark; 11-17-2022 at 03:46 AM.

  7. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dookaughs View Post
    I drive an 2018 SE with the DS, and I do notice the two speed "powerglide-like" transmission. It'll "shift" after 15 mph (I do not exactly recall which speed) but after that all the speed is on a single band.

    The DS feature is neat but I would not use it by nature of the CVT operating on a "band" although I've never built a CVT Transmission - I could imagine the CVT Band slipping, with the amount compression/engine brake generated by the motor in the DS gear selection.

    Everything below this is Cruise Control related and theoretical
    `Set` at 25 mph to `Acc` to 50 mph this will have a static rate of RPM's, but accelerating beyond 50mph will force the motor into the 4k+ range in order to accelerate in many cases. I will incrementally rock the `Acc`to slowly and economically "pur" the motor (and C.V.T.)to the desired speed. However, the cruise control is a lot more permissive towards lower RPM's when `Res` back to a faster than current speed. They may have tried to add performance by doing a high rev feature for the Cruise C. Acceleration on the C.V.T. instead of biting the bullet with our limited torque...You could be going nowhere fast.

    You may or may not be able to accelerate better with the accelerator pedal than with the cruise control. Wear and Tear is something to consider too.

    I think the C.V.T. has a very nice sound... I can hear it clearly when bleeping the `Acc` rocker switch!


    How CVT works
    Interesting, and I think you might be the first person I've ever heard that said that they thought the CVT resulted in a nice engine sound!



    Quote Originally Posted by Mark View Post
    I was just sharing what these cars were going for back then. I would say good deals exited from 2017 to April of 2021. I can't speak for prices before 2017, because a Mirage was not on my radar. I could have bought a 2021 Mirage ES manual for under $11,000 OTD @ White Bear (January - April of 2021), & then things really changed drastically. Sadly, I don't see deals like that coming back.

    I see the Mirage as an affordable, reliable, & economical car. If you take any of those three items away from it, it's not as appealing to me. Based on pricing alone, the Mirage would not be as appealing to me today. I wouldn't rule out looking at the Honda Fit or Toyota Yaris, but that's me.

    It's not a car that makes you go "wow" during a test drive. It does have a charm that grows on you over time, however.
    Agree with everything you said, and the importance of low price in making the Mirage a rational choice is much of why I'm considering a low-cost used one.

    But it's all relative-- while the Mirage is much more expensive than it was a couple of years ago, it's still cheap relative to other brands out there.

    Fortunately, I don't have to buy today-- I have plenty of time to wait. Some feel the fed is going too far with their interest rate hikes and that we'll be in a recession next year. If that happens, the low prices might be back again.

    So, I'll just bide my time and watch the market until next summer. I expect I will be buying something at that point.

  8. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fummins View Post
    I'm lazy and don't mind the cvt. I drove 6-speed(manual..) trucks as a commuter car for a while and that got old when stuck in traffic. Or at the gas station...
    Why did it get old at the gas station?

        __________________________________________

        click to view fuel log View my fuel log 2020 Mirage ES 1.2 manual: 42.4 mpg (US) ... 18.0 km/L ... 5.5 L/100 km ... 50.9 mpg (Imp)


  9. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Rogers View Post
    I.e., a 2017 ES seems like the most stripped model one can have. If I go to a 2015, I have to accept auto climate control. Ok, maybe that's not such a big deal because maybe that system is reliable enough that it doesn't really add any complication.
    The auto climate control is horseshi1. And a PITA. See if you can find a manual HVAC vehicle with everything else you'd want.

        __________________________________________

        click to view fuel log View my fuel log 2020 Mirage ES 1.2 manual: 42.4 mpg (US) ... 18.0 km/L ... 5.5 L/100 km ... 50.9 mpg (Imp)


  10. #29
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    I started another thread here on that topic, and it seems there are several that say that the auto climate 1) works well, and 2) is reliable.

    Since I don't know one way or another, why do you say it's a PITA?

    (And you might want to answer on the other thread, just to keep things organized!)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Rogers View Post
    I'm planning on retiring soon, and will have time to work on cars. As such, I'm planning on selling all my other cars (I have several) and buying two or three Mirages. I will have them long term and both my wife and I will drive them. When one breaks down, I'll rotate it into the garage and fix it while the others are driven.
    I have to believe we're in a similar spot in life. I'm not exactly thinking of retiring (well yes, I think about it, but can't yet), but I'd like to change my career path in the not too distant future. It would be to a career that pays about half as much to start with anyway. So it's not easy to pull the trigger on that.

    And at the same time, I find the Mirage such a tremendous value, I'd like to get the wife and sons into one. The problem is, I discovered the Mirage too late. And the sons wouldn't drive one now, it's not youthful enough. And the wife wouldn't drive one now, it doesn't have the right "image" for her (she's one of those). Although, she does drive a 2009 Matrix. More or less out of necessity. However, if it were her time to get her the next car, she wants as snooty of a vehicle as possible. She must have an SUV, and it must be bigger than an Abrams tank. So I guess I'll remain a 1 Mirage household.


        __________________________________________

        click to view fuel log View my fuel log 2020 Mirage ES 1.2 manual: 42.4 mpg (US) ... 18.0 km/L ... 5.5 L/100 km ... 50.9 mpg (Imp)


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