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Thread: TIL the metal is paper thin.

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    Senior Member Wallythacker's Avatar
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    TIL the metal is paper thin.

    I watched an interesting show where the TV guy barely pushed on the metal and you could see it bending in. Apparently you could do this almost everywhere on the vehicle. For that reason the crews were not allowed to push anywhere to move the vehicles around. There were charts and manuals for what was allowed.

    Yes, this is the Mitsubishi A6M Zero fighter from WWII. This, and many other reasons, meant the Zero was so light it had an incredible range and was highly manueverable. the downside was there was no pilot protection and one hit from an incendiary .50 cal round would cause the plane to explode in a blaze.

    It would have cost Mitsubishi 350 lbs to have self sealing gas tanks and an armored tub for the pilot. The engine in the Zero, very lightly stressed and capable of much more, was only producing 950hp when Western radials were cranking out 1700hp or more. Japan, like Germany, flew their best pilots until they were killed. In Japan's case it was ridiculous they thought so poorly of their aviators. BTW, the Japanese training program for pilots was among the most rigorous and best there was.


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    Business Up Front Johnny Mullet's Avatar
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    Thanks for the history lesson!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wallythacker View Post
    I watched an interesting show where the TV guy barely pushed on the metal and you could see it bending in. Apparently you could do this almost everywhere on the vehicle. For that reason the crews were not allowed to push anywhere to move the vehicles around. There were charts and manuals for what was allowed.

    Yes, this is the Mitsubishi A6M Zero fighter from WWII. This, and many other reasons, meant the Zero was so light it had an incredible range and was highly manueverable. the downside was there was no pilot protection and one hit from an incendiary .50 cal round would cause the plane to explode in a blaze.

    It would have cost Mitsubishi 350 lbs to have self sealing gas tanks and an armored tub for the pilot. The engine in the Zero, very lightly stressed and capable of much more, was only producing 950hp when Western radials were cranking out 1700hp or more. Japan, like Germany, flew their best pilots until they were killed. In Japan's case it was ridiculous they thought so poorly of their aviators. BTW, the Japanese training program for pilots was among the most rigorous and best there was.

    Since their equipment was so poorly designed & pilots were so young & inexperienced, they felt their best chance of success was sending their planes/pilots into their targets. They were desperate & willing to do anything for success.

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    When people think of a large kamikaze attack, they may automatically think of the attack on Pearl Harbor. However, the largest kamikaze attack actually took place at the Battle of Okinawa. During the battle, over 1,900 pilots were deployed to sink as many enemy ships as possible.

    The kamikaze attacks only reached the targeted ships 14%- 19% of the time. The main reason for this was because the pilots were often inexperienced and did not have the skills necessary to hit their targets. In addition, the planes they were flying were often outdated and not up to the task of accurately hitting a moving target. Oftentimes tracers shot down kamikaze planes before they could hit their targets.

    While these pilots are often seen as a product of World War II, suicide has actually been a part of Japanese military tradition for centuries. Samurai warriors would often commit suicide rather than be taken prisoner, and the tradition of seppuku (ritual suicide) was still practiced up until the Meiji period.

    Kamikaze pilots saw themselves as continuing this tradition. Even before the official formation of the kamikaze units, some pilots intentionally crashed their planes to avoid capture after their plane got damaged – as well as do damage to the enemy."

    taken from

    https://www.historyonthenet.com/kami...the-real-story

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    i wonder how thick you think the body of the plane would have to be to stop 50 cal rounds?
    please consider checking out my Mirage related youtube channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC6c...IEViRFw/videos

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    Senior Member Dirk Diggler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark View Post
    Since their equipment was so poorly designed & pilots were so young & inexperienced, they felt their best chance of success was sending their planes/pilots into their targets. They were desperate & willing to do anything for success.

    Quote -

    When people think of a large kamikaze attack, they may automatically think of the attack on Pearl Harbor. However, the largest kamikaze attack actually took place at the Battle of Okinawa. During the battle, over 1,900 pilots were deployed to sink as many enemy ships as possible.

    The kamikaze attacks only reached the targeted ships 14%- 19% of the time. The main reason for this was because the pilots were often inexperienced and did not have the skills necessary to hit their targets. In addition, the planes they were flying were often outdated and not up to the task of accurately hitting a moving target. Oftentimes tracers shot down kamikaze planes before they could hit their targets.

    While these pilots are often seen as a product of World War II, suicide has actually been a part of Japanese military tradition for centuries. Samurai warriors would often commit suicide rather than be taken prisoner, and the tradition of seppuku (ritual suicide) was still practiced up until the Meiji period.

    Kamikaze pilots saw themselves as continuing this tradition. Even before the official formation of the kamikaze units, some pilots intentionally crashed their planes to avoid capture after their plane got damaged – as well as do damage to the enemy."

    taken from

    https://www.historyonthenet.com/kami...the-real-story
    I agree with most of what you wrote, however I wouldn't call the Imperial Japanese Navy's equipment poorly designed at all for the 1st half of the Pacific War. The Zero had the highest kill ratio of any fighter throughout all of WWII, Axis or Allied. Their aircraft carriers were at the peak of innovation. What got them in trouble was that their sailors were not trained well in damage control compared to the Allies.

    The Battle of Midway was the turning point. American manufacturing and design, had outpaced the IJN by 1942. They simply didn't have enough steel or oil to compete, so they turned to kamikaze attacks by 1945.

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    Senior Member Dirk Diggler's Avatar
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    Mitsubishi was the only corporation that had to officially apologize to the Koreans for using their males as slave labor in Mitsubishi mines and their females as "comfort women" for the officers.

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    "Poorly designed" is kind of poor wording. The zero fighters were designed well. But were not designed for strong self defense or pilot protection. Those planes were designed for offense, not defense.

    The Pacific battles of WWII are so very interesting, and scary how easily it could have gone the wrong way. There were high level military men who listened to lower level guys, and many higher level guys who would not. It concerns me that I would have been the type that would not have paid attention to what I was being told. Thank God we had the right men in the right positions where and when it mattered.

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    Senior Member Dirk Diggler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 7milesout View Post
    "Poorly designed" is kind of poor wording. The zero fighters were designed well. But were not designed for strong self defense or pilot protection. Those planes were designed for offense, not defense.

    The Pacific battles of WWII are so very interesting, and scary how easily it could have gone the wrong way. There were high level military men who listened to lower level guys, and many higher level guys who would not. It concerns me that I would have been the type that would not have paid attention to what I was being told. Thank God we had the right men in the right positions where and when it mattered.
    If it wasn't for the atomic bombs being dropped, I'd probably wouldn't be alive. My Grandpappy fought at Saipan and Okinawa. He was in a transport ship on his way to Japan afterwards, knowing full well the projected causality of over a million Americans being killed trying to take the home islands. He told me after seeing how intense and desperate the Japanese fought, he just knew he wouldn't survive landing in Tokyo Bay.

    That's a pretty powerful testament to Japan's fortitude, that the US had to drop two nukes on them to get them to capitulate. The Germans surrendered in the hundreds of thousands, not the Japanese though.

    We'll see if the old Bushido code is still prevalent when China invades Formosa. They're gonna need it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dirk Diggler View Post
    If it wasn't for the atomic bombs being dropped, I'd probably wouldn't be alive. My Grandpappy fought at Saipan and Okinawa. He was in a transport ship on his way to Japan afterwards, knowing full well the projected causality of over a million Americans being killed trying to take the home islands. He told me after seeing how intense and desperate the Japanese fought, he just knew he wouldn't survive landing in Tokyo Bay.

    That's a pretty powerful testament to Japan's fortitude, that the US had to drop two nukes on them to get them to capitulate. The Germans surrendered in the hundreds of thousands, not the Japanese though.

    We'll see if the old Bushido code is still prevalent when China invades Formosa. They're gonna need it.

    They sure will need it! Concerning Formosa, it was mainland China that seceeded.

    I wouldn't be around either if my dad had not successfully escaped a soviet slave labour camp. Dad was an ambulance driver. His unit had neither fuel, nor weapons, supplies or any contact to the outside world, so they hid in the bavarian woods and waited. They didn't find out it was all over until a week later when American troups came. They all surrendered immediately without fighting. Since they were still wearing uniforms although it was over, they were classified by the US as clandestine fighters and sold(!) to the Soviets. My dad was put into in a Soviet forced-labour concentration camp, that only one in five survived. Of those that did initially survive, most died shortly after from their ruined health and malnutrition. Dad weighed only 37kg. They were prisoned for a minimum of five years mining coal and received neither clothes nor shoes and had no medical help at all. There is a book about these events called "Other losses". It tells the story of regular POW's being purposely and wrongly classified and then to be sold to the Soviets for their forced labour camps. If we look around in the world, and we don't need to look far, it doesn't seem much better today at all. There are even rogue democracies with secret amendments to laws, secret laws and secret courts, and yet they call themselves free countries. Dictators and democracies-gone-wrong are gaining ground again. Terrible, and maybe worse times coming.

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    Senior Member Dirk Diggler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by foama View Post
    They sure will need it! Concerning Formosa, it was mainland China that seceeded.

    I wouldn't be around either if my dad had not successfully escaped a soviet slave labour camp. Dad was an ambulance driver. His unit had neither fuel, nor weapons, supplies or any contact to the outside world, so they hid in the bavarian woods and waited. They didn't find out it was all over until a week later when American troups came. They all surrendered immediately without fighting. Since they were still wearing uniforms although it was over, they were classified by the US as clandestine fighters and sold(!) to the Soviets. My dad was put into in a Soviet forced-labour concentration camp, that only one in five survived. Of those that did initially survive, most died shortly after from their ruined health and malnutrition. Dad weighed only 37kg. They were prisoned for a minimum of five years mining coal and received neither clothes nor shoes and had no medical help at all. There is a book about these events called "Other losses". It tells the story of regular POW's being purposely and wrongly classified and then to be sold to the Soviets for their forced labour camps. If we look around in the world, and we don't need to look far, it doesn't seem much better today at all. There are even rogue democracies with secret amendments to laws, secret laws and secret courts, and yet they call themselves free countries. Dictators and democracies-gone-wrong are gaining ground again. Terrible, and maybe worse times coming.
    Wow. You're father survived a Soviet gulag? That's incredible, truly. At least if WWIII breaks out, it won't last 5 years like the last one, more like 45 minutes lol.



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