DIY: Removing the rear seats (turn your Mirage into a mini cargo van)

[Mark]

Yes, I asked the dealer and he said "The recommendation is no ethanol in small engines. Ethanol tends to leave residue and gunk things up over time."
And:
"If you must use Ethanol, I would research whether there is a specific additive that minimizes the effects of the ethanol. We recommend Sta-Bil in the tank if the bike will sit for extended periods, and if the bike is going to sit, I would not leave any ethanol fuel in it. I would not use an ethanol fuel unless there is no other option in an absolute pinch.

Premium fuel is fine, but you can run as low as 87 octane and not hurt anything. I did find a Sta-Bil Ethanol treatment on Amazon.com. They make varying quantities, so you can choose what best fits your need." I presume they meant 87 with 0 ethanol.

Carburetors are even less capable at handling ethanol. I hope that my town still has a no-ethanol station- I was never picky about this before, but would hope that motorcyclists could still have access to this- kinda defeats the whole "route 66" road trip idea but it seems some modern motorcycles are capable of it. https://www.motorcyclistonline.com/g...t-magazine-mc/ Another thing is 10% ethanol is 10% "green" fuel but with a 100mpg tank I feel like I've "earned" my E0 access at 5x the fuel efficiency of most pickups. This website seems fairly up to date https://www.pure-gas.org/extensions/maps.jsp

Edit: Interesting: "Assuming your bike’s capacity is 4 gallons, the 15-foot hose’s 0.24-gallon volume is only 6 percent of the tank’s capacity. For the more common 10-foot hose it’s just 4 percent—in other words, negligible. And that’s assuming the hose is completely full from the manifold to the nozzle valve, which it may not be."

The Navi has a 0.9 gallon tank, which a .24 gallon hose with a previous vehicles fuel selection would comprise more than 26.6% of the fuel- assuming it is 15% ethanol and not 85% ethanol and sharing the same hose. That would work out to about 3.75% ethanol starting from an empty tank, with the first .24 gallon 15% ethanol and the remaining 0.66 gallons 100% E0 (assuming it is an option but without a separate hose). Seems like still a lot more ethanol than some engines can handle..

I don't use ethanol for my small engines at home (ATVs, chainsaws, lawnmowers, grass trimmers, etc..), but I never had an issue with 10% ethanol in my Suzuki (& it had 4 carburetors). A 1981 Suzuki GS550T had more cylinders than a Mirage. I paid $900 for that bike in 2004, & I sold it for $900 10 years later. I really liked the fuel injection of my Kawasaki Versys 650 (tuned down Ninja engine) that replaced it. I never hesitated to use 10% ethanol in my cycle, but the Navi is quite small. So that makes sense I guess.

Some of my things are 2-strokes & ethanol gas does not mix with oil well. It's a disaster in chainsaws & such. Thus, I bring premium gas with 0% ethanol home for everything. Pretty much all other grades of gas are going to have ethanol in it in our area.

[Mark]

Edit: interesting quote from the Motorcyclist article: "Assuming your bike’s capacity is 4 gallons, the 15-foot hose’s 0.24-gallon volume is only 6 percent of the tank’s capacity. For the more common 10-foot hose it’s just 4 percent—in other words, negligible. And that’s assuming the hose is completely full from the manifold to the nozzle valve, which it may not be."

If you are referring to the hose at the gas pump, none of the grades of gas share the share hose where I buy gas. If there are 4 grades of gas at the pump, there are 4 separate hoses. Some grades may even be 85% ethanol or diesel fuel. Not only are there separate hoses for each grade of fuel, but the nozzles are also colored differently. For example 85% ethanol will be blue and the diesel will be yellow.

[highwire]

I don't use ethanol for my small engines at home (ATVs, chainsaws, lawnmowers, grass trimmers, etc..), but I never had an issue with 10% ethanol in my Suzuki (& it had 4 carburetors). A 1981 Suzuki GS550T had more cylinders than a Mirage. I paid $900 for that bike in 2004, & I sold it for $900 10 years later. I really liked the fuel injection of my Kawasaki Versys 650 (tuned down Ninja engine) that replaced it. I never hesitated to use 10% ethanol in my cycle, but the Navi is quite small. So that makes sense I guess.

Some of my things are 2-strokes & ethanol gas does not mix with oil well. It's a disaster in chainsaws & such. Thus, I bring premium gas with 0% ethanol home for everything. Pretty much all other grades of gas are going to have ethanol in it in our area.

The Navi has the same engine as the Honda Activa, except without the fuel-injection (It is also sold at a much lower price outside the U.S). But I dig that it has CVT. One less issue to worry about (speed is not one of them, heh). It has a 4-stroke, but only one cylinder so maybe ethanol would be "less bad" on 4-stroke, but still less in the Navi's favor if 10% ethanol is the only option. There seems to be a lot of misinformation/misunderstandings about ethanol. While it may "clean" the engine by helping certain residues burn off, it still forms gunk which cannot: https://www.theautochannel.com/news/...ems-video.html

I am not sure whether detergents, gas and ethanol can be considered all on the same plane in terms of importance. there seems to be a different ratio, if not zero in some cases. I have sought Top Tier fuel because I realize it may have additional detergents, but for some engines, one type of fuel may be more of an elephant/gorilla. I am too underinformed to suggest I know much more, but I have had great success with the Mirage and Top Tier fuel with regular unleaded (averaging 45-50mpg, even in winter).

[Mark]

The Navi has the same engine as the Honda Activa, except without the fuel-injection (It is also sold at a much lower price outside the U.S). But I dig that it has CVT. One less issue to worry about (speed is not one of them, heh). It has a 4-stroke, but only one cylinder so maybe ethanol would be "less bad" on 4-stroke, but still less in the Navi's favor if 10% ethanol is the only option. There seems to be a lot of misinformation/misunderstandings about ethanol. While it may "clean" the engine by helping certain residues burn off, it still forms gunk which cannot: https://www.theautochannel.com/news/...ems-video.html

I am not sure whether detergents, gas and ethanol can be considered all on the same plane in terms of importance. there seems to be a different ratio, if not zero in some cases. I have sought Top Tier fuel because I realize it may have additional detergents, but for some engines, one type of fuel may be more of an elephant/gorilla. I am too underinformed to suggest I know much more, but I have had great success with the Mirage and Top Tier fuel with regular unleaded (averaging 45-50mpg, even in winter).

My Rupp mini bike had a torque converter like a snowmobile on it. My brother & I ran that thing into the ground. Anyone old enough to remember Rupp snowmobiles? I got first motorcycle when I was 16, & it was a 1977 Yamaha XS400. It was Yamaha's answer to the very popular Honda CB360 & the following CB400. It had twin cylinders with a kick start (no battery in the bike)! You learned how kick start a cycle without falling over quite fast! It had 400 miles on it, & I paid $700 for it in 1979. I sold it 4 years later (after my sophomore year of college) for $700. I really liked that cycle, but it got to the point where I needed a car more (I couldn't afford both).

Learning to row through the gears is a big part of the fun of owning/driving a motorcycle in my opinion. I was younger & better looking in those days. I would spend hours giving cute girls motorcycle rides during high school. I remember going to high school parties & never getting off my bike. When I came back with one girl the next one was already waiting in line. I'm not sure a Honda Navi or Monkey would be quite the same chick magnet!

I hope you enjoy your new cycle! It should be fun!

[klroger]

Highwire, as far as the e-10 goes, I think it comes down to maintenance. I have a small Engine repair business & I'll estimate 75ish % of my work is carb & fuel related. Especially now with snow blowers coming out of hibernation. It comes down to maintenance. I have a 2002 KLR650 I bought new & have ran regular e-10 in it since new & never touched the carb, but & prep it properly for storage & it gets used daily in the summer. On the other hand, I get the same people each year with the same snowblowers that won't start & I have to clean the carbs & tanks, even tho they claim to only run non ethanol Hi-test fuel. These people just turn them off & walk away...

Remember, todays fuel isn't even designed for carburetors any more. Even the Hi-test non ethanol fuel has a lot of additives in it & when the volatile vapors evaporate when a machine sits, all these additives leave a really pretty green goo behind in your carb. Not so much in fuel injection systems because the hi pressure lines are not open to atmosphere so it has no place to evaporate to.

I wouldn't & I don't use any additives in the fuel. Keep the fuel fresh, use the machine regularly & prep it properly for storage (30 days or more) & as with my KLR, you'll be Golden for years.

I have to agree with Mark tho, keep the e-10 away from your 2 strokes, its hard on crank seals & the diaphragms in the carbs... Sorry to babble today, I had an extra Coffee . Should soon dilute it with a good old Blue

[highwire]

Highwire, as far as the e-10 goes, I think it comes down to maintenance. I have a small Engine repair business & I'll estimate 75ish % of my work is carb & fuel related. Especially now with snow blowers coming out of hibernation. It comes down to maintenance. I have a 2002 KLR650 I bought new & have ran regular e-10 in it since new & never touched the carb, but & prep it properly for storage & it gets used daily in the summer. On the other hand, I get the same people each year with the same snowblowers that won't start & I have to clean the carbs & tanks, even tho they claim to only run non ethanol Hi-test fuel. These people just turn them off & walk away...

Remember, todays fuel isn't even designed for carburetors any more. Even the Hi-test non ethanol fuel has a lot of additives in it & when the volatile vapors evaporate when a machine sits, all these additives leave a really pretty green goo behind in your carb. Not so much in fuel injection systems because the hi pressure lines are not open to atmosphere so it has no place to evaporate to.

I wouldn't & I don't use any additives in the fuel. Keep the fuel fresh, use the machine regularly & prep it properly for storage (30 days or more) & as with my KLR, you'll be Golden for years.

I have to agree with Mark tho, keep the e-10 away from your 2 strokes, its hard on crank seals & the diaphragms in the carbs... Sorry to babble today, I had an extra Coffee . Should soon dilute it with a good old Blue

Thank you klroger so much for that info! I was a little curious as to whether E10 would allow the cycle to run with reasonable maintenance intervals, (in and out of warranty]) and what kind of maintenance intervals it would need for the engine. [Sorry to moderators if I have changed gone too far off topic]

On the one hand, there are suggestions to completely leave the tank empty in storage (but not to burn the remaining fuel out to introduce dust, but to siphon it i presume?)

On the other hand, some suggest to leave the tank full with E0 so condensate cannot form (whether or not this is true, I do not know).

And one even suggested keeping the tank half full in storage.

I will opt to keep the tank empty with a siphon for the last 10%.

But I am curious, having a small engine repair business would be advantageous compared to the average rider-

"It comes down to maintenance. I have a 2002 KLR650 I bought new & have ran regular e-10 in it since new & never touched the carb, but & prep it properly for storage & it gets used daily in the summer. "

By new, I presume you purchased it 19-20yrs ago, and have never needed to take clean the engine, other than routine 1-2 yr oil changes? Or does that involve taking apart the engine to clean out gunk? Or using a less intensive way, like using an endoscope and mini pressure washer? How often would engine cleaning be needed before the cycle becomes unsafe for driving? I am not sure I will drive mine 2500 miles before my first oil change in 2 years.

How much does engine maintenance (not oil changes) cost? I am a motorcycle newb, so sorry if I misread.

Also, I haven't asked my dealership what kind of oil it uses but I know it doesn't use car oil, but some version for motorcycles. That said, what is the best kind of synthetic, and if I wanted the best mileage and engine preservation, is there a better synthetic oil even if conventional or hybrid blend is recommended?

[klroger]

Hey Highwire, I have 70,000km on it & it's 20 years old in April. I've never done any kind of cleaning to the engine, other then regular washing of the outside. All the maintenance I have done is 1 replacement spark plug, 2 valve clearance checks (I found no adjustment needed) & regular oil & filter changes @ 5000 kms. I run 5w-50 synthetic car oil, but check you're manual as the KLR is liquid cooled & I think you're bike is aircooled. If you have a belt type CVT, you shouldn't really need any special oil, as the special oil is to prevent "shear" in the gears of the transmissions of bikes with a conventional transmission. With regular oil changes, you should never have to take the engine apart to clean any thing inside. It's kinda the same as a car engine, just smaller.

What I do for storage is drain the entire fuel system (I leave the carb drain open), remove my fuel tank (mines steel, yours may be plastic), put a cup of oil in it & shake the snot out of it to cover the inside. I then hang it from the rafter of my basement with the cap open to let it breathe. Oh, & put the battery in a cool dark place & trickle charge it once in a while...

Take care of it & you'll have many years of fun. Remember, "You Meet The Nicest People On A Honda"

PS, Mods, feel free to move us to a separate topic, as we are kinda off course.

[Mark]

Thank you klroger so much for that info! I was a little curious as to whether E10 would allow the cycle to run with reasonable maintenance intervals, (in and out of warranty]) and what kind of maintenance intervals it would need for the engine. [Sorry to moderators if I have changed gone too far off topic]

If you are using the cycle a lot, I don't think a tank or two of E10 would cause any issues or create extra maintenance. Ethanol gas doesn't store/keep as well.

When I had my Kawasaki Versys 650, I would add a gas tank or two of premium (E0) towards the end of summer. My Versys was fuel injection, but the bigger issue is letting the gas sit for extended periods of time.

Given the small size of a Honda Navi, I would use E0 as much as possible, but I wouldn't hesitate using E10 if I was riding a lot & using up the gas. I use E0 at home, because some items sit for months. My log splitter has a Honda engine for example, & I don't use it year round. Same with things like rototillers & lawnmowers. I have very few fuel related issues with E0 fuel. Premium E0 fuel is worth the extra cost for small engines in my opinion, the Navi is a small engine.

[highwire]

If you are using the cycle a lot, I don't think a tank or two of E10 would cause any issues or create extra maintenance. Ethanol gas doesn't store/keep as well.

When I had my Kawasaki Versys 650, I would add a gas tank or two of premium (E0) towards the end of summer. My Versys was fuel injection, but the bigger issue is letting the gas sit for extended periods of time.

Given the small size of a Honda Navi, I would use E0 as much as possible, but I wouldn't hesitate using E10 if I was riding a lot & using up the gas. I use E0 at home, because some items sit for months. My log splitter has a Honda engine for example, & I don't use it year round. Same with things like rototillers & lawnmowers. I have very few fuel related issues with E0 fuel. Premium E0 fuel is worth the extra cost for small engines in my opinion, the Navi is a small engine.

Thanks klroger and Mark! I will try to remove the backseats today with my wrench- I have a ratchet set that I never opened but I will try the wrench first. I've also misplaced it so I may be able to remove the seats in the time it takes me to find it. It will probably be at least three weeks before it is ready to pickup but I figure I will have it ready.

[highwire]

Update: I removed just the small backseat. The large seat still had the seatbelt connected, and the middle bolts were much harder to remove than the 4 side bolts (2 on each side). I measured the bike is 2.5 feet wide and less than 2 yards long, and the measurements of the Mirage exceed that, except for maybe the highest point of the back seat bottom. There should be enough wiggle room and I can move the large backseat to the side, but any metal attachment facing the foot compartment so that it doesn't bump against the window. it should be even more snug with the bike in on the way back.

I'll add a blanket/tarp for the seats so no oil/fuel falls on it.