Page 36 of 37 FirstFirst ... 2634353637 LastLast
Results 351 to 360 of 364

Thread: HVAC heat blows warm/hot on drivers side, cool/cold passenger side (warranty issue)

  1. #351
    Senior Member Top_Fuel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Location
    Ohio
    Country
    United States
    Posts
    3,699
    Thanks
    2,582
    Thanked 2,537 Times in 1,471 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Eggman View Post
    ...you think it is reacting with materials in the heater core (flux) to produce this gel?
    The way I am interpreting the TSB (and the comments from BASF) is this...

    The gel material (excessive flux) is left inside the heater core at the time it is manufactured. It's not being created by a reaction with the coolant. It's already present in the heater core. The coolant is just moving it around and causing it to collect in 1 spot.

    Apparently the material can be carried in hot coolant. But when the temperature of the coolant drops, the material is deposited back onto the core. This is why Doax's heater core shows almost no material on the passenger side inlet...but almost all of the material has collected on the passenger side outlet where the temperature would be lower (this was specifically mentioned by BASF).

    The flow of coolant through the passenger side is probably somewhat weaker since it is further away from the inlet/outlet pipes of the heater core...which is probably making the condition worse since that side of the core remains cooler and more susceptible to accumulations of the material.


    Passenger side is in the red box...

    Name:  core.jpg
Views: 805
Size:  87.9 KB

    The comments from BASF about using a specific coolant suggest that some coolants won't move and collect the flux material. Well...that's too late for everyone with a restricted heater core! The material has already collected in a single area.

    The real question is this: Will any chemical easily dissolve this flux/manufacturing material? I'm assuming there's not an easy solution because VW would have figured it out by now.

    Again...this is the conclusion I have come to. That doesn't make it correct.


        __________________________________________

        click to view fuel log View my fuel log 2015 Mirage ES 1.2 manual: 52.2 mpg (US) ... 22.2 km/L ... 4.5 L/100 km ... 62.6 mpg (Imp)


  2. The Following User Says Thank You to Top_Fuel For This Useful Post:

    Daox (12-19-2019)

  3. #352
    Moderator Eggman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Location
    Cleveland, Ohio
    Country
    United States
    Posts
    10,154
    Thanks
    4,039
    Thanked 2,786 Times in 2,105 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Top_Fuel View Post
    Again...this is the conclusion I have come to. That doesn't make it correct.
    That may be so, but I sure do appreciate your input. I'm trying to figure this out like the rest of us, and there's a lot of coolant info to sort through. Your theory makes sense, except for the report from the TDIForums guy who used CLR to clear up his problem.

        __________________________________________

        click to view fuel log View my fuel log 2015 Mirage ES 1.2 manual: 49.6 mpg (US) ... 21.1 km/L ... 4.7 L/100 km ... 59.5 mpg (Imp)


  4. #353
    Moderator Eggman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Location
    Cleveland, Ohio
    Country
    United States
    Posts
    10,154
    Thanks
    4,039
    Thanked 2,786 Times in 2,105 Posts
    This video of a VW heater core has a different kind of blockage-causing accumulation. Jump to the 4 minute mark to see what I mean.



    This could explain why CLR seems to help clear out the VW heater core blockage.

        __________________________________________

        click to view fuel log View my fuel log 2015 Mirage ES 1.2 manual: 49.6 mpg (US) ... 21.1 km/L ... 4.7 L/100 km ... 59.5 mpg (Imp)


  5. The Following User Says Thank You to Eggman For This Useful Post:

    Top_Fuel (12-19-2019)

  6. #354
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Country is Europe, state is Germany
    Country
    Germany
    Posts
    1,713
    Thanks
    234
    Thanked 1,158 Times in 670 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Eggman View Post
    This video of a VW heater core has a different kind of blockage-causing accumulation.

    This could explain why CLR seems to help clear out the VW heater core blockage.

    If we had a sample of the mystery blocking substance, it could be sent to BASF or a random different coolant maker for analysis. As far as I know this has not been done yet. Maybe that explains why we are at post 354 or so of this thread without a definite solution!


    When a certain coolant is recommended for a given car, it is the result of communication between the car maker and the coolant manufacturer. If the heater core contains undeclared "auxilary substances from manufacture" that the car manufacturer did not declare to the coolant maker, it would be no wonder unexpected effects happen. Since they did happen, I contacted BASF and their experts gave us their best advice without actually having any of that mystery substance in hands for analysis.

    You can take it as it stands or make up you own theory, but I will stick to what the chemical experts said. I followed their recommendations and am very confident they certainly know what they are talking about!
    Last edited by foama; 12-19-2019 at 05:26 PM.

  7. The Following User Says Thank You to foama For This Useful Post:

    Top_Fuel (12-19-2019)

  8. #355
    Moderator Eggman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Location
    Cleveland, Ohio
    Country
    United States
    Posts
    10,154
    Thanks
    4,039
    Thanked 2,786 Times in 2,105 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by foama View Post
    When a certain coolant is recommended for a given car, it is the result of communication between the car maker and the coolant manufacturer. If the heater core contains undeclared "auxilary substances from manufacture" that the car manufacturer did not declare to the coolant maker, it would be no wonder unexpected effects happen. Since they did happen, I contacted BASF and their experts gave us their best advice without actually having any of that mystery substance in hands for analysis.
    Except heater clogging is happening to other cars, and many with no evidence of improper coolant or additives being used. Sometimes, parts suppliers might be to blame, sometimes it's the vehicle manufacturer.

    And I agree it would be helpful to know exactly what that mystery substance is in order to find a suitable solvent. Until then, all we (and distant chemical experts) can do is guess.

        __________________________________________

        click to view fuel log View my fuel log 2015 Mirage ES 1.2 manual: 49.6 mpg (US) ... 21.1 km/L ... 4.7 L/100 km ... 59.5 mpg (Imp)


  9. #356
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Country is Europe, state is Germany
    Country
    Germany
    Posts
    1,713
    Thanks
    234
    Thanked 1,158 Times in 670 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Eggman View Post
    Except heater clogging is happening to other cars, and many with no evidence of improper coolant or additives being used. Sometimes, parts suppliers might be to blame, sometimes it's the vehicle manufacturer.

    And I agree it would be helpful to know exactly what that mystery substance is in order to find a suitable solvent. Until then, all we (and distant chemical experts) can do is guess.
    Agreed! What we need is evidence, and means the clogging substance needs to be analyzed.
    Furthermore, if residues of "auxillary substances in manufacture" were left inside the cooling system, they would be candidate number one for being the cause.
    I understand BASF mail as saying there could well be such substances, and the coolant type G64 would check that problem for once and for all.

    Said that, whatever coolant we use, we should never ever mix different makers coolant!
    Last edited by foama; 12-19-2019 at 05:51 PM.

  10. #357
    Senior Member Top_Fuel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Location
    Ohio
    Country
    United States
    Posts
    3,699
    Thanks
    2,582
    Thanked 2,537 Times in 1,471 Posts
    Interesting white paper below. I can't say I fully comprehend the the topic as presented, but it gives you some more background information.

    Cleaning Methods for Flux Pollution Measurement in Automotive Coolant Loop Components

        __________________________________________

        click to view fuel log View my fuel log 2015 Mirage ES 1.2 manual: 52.2 mpg (US) ... 22.2 km/L ... 4.5 L/100 km ... 62.6 mpg (Imp)


  11. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Top_Fuel For This Useful Post:

    foama (12-19-2019),inuvik (12-19-2019)

  12. #358
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Country is Europe, state is Germany
    Country
    Germany
    Posts
    1,713
    Thanks
    234
    Thanked 1,158 Times in 670 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Top_Fuel View Post
    Interesting white paper below. I can't say I fully comprehend the the topic as presented, but it gives you some more background information.

    Cleaning Methods for Flux Pollution Measurement in Automotive Coolant Loop Components

    An excellent paper, good find! It explains a lot.
    Remember our engine blocks are made by high-pressure aluminium casting. That method was pioneered in Kölleda while Mitsubishi and Daimler (Benz) co-owned that plant. It might explain Daimler's strict requirement as exhibited in that paper. It also suggests it was 100% correct to exchange the coolant on an almost new car to get rid of the unwanted substance and prevent future grief.

  13. #359
    Moderator Eggman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Location
    Cleveland, Ohio
    Country
    United States
    Posts
    10,154
    Thanks
    4,039
    Thanked 2,786 Times in 2,105 Posts

    Paper: Engine Coolant Basics

    Engine Coolant Basics
    Paul Fritz, Chevron

    Quote Originally Posted by MachineryLubrication.com | January, 2006
    Engine Coolant Basics


    Coolant (or antifreeze) protects your engine from freezing while defending components against corrosion. It plays a critical role in sustaining engine heat balance by removing heat.

    In a heavy-duty diesel engine, only one-third of the total energy produced works to propel the vehicle forward. An additional one-third is removed as heat energy by the exhaust system. The remaining one-third of heat energy produced is taken away by the engine coolant.

    This heat removed by the coolant provides a balance in the removal of engine heat that is critical in ensuring that the engine operates properly. Overheating could result in accelerated deterioration of the oil and the engine itself.

    While water provides the best heat transfer, glycol is also used in engine coolants to provide freeze protection. The addition of glycol slightly reduces the heat transfer of the water, but in most climates and applications, freeze protection is critical.

    Nearly all engines use coolants with similar base fluids: a 50/50 mix of ethylene glycol and water. In some circumstances, industrial engines may use other base fluids, such as additized water or a mixture of propylene glycol and water.

    In addition to the base fluid, there are a small amount of other ingredients including corrosion inhibitors, antifoams, dyes and other additives. While these other ingredients make up only a small fraction of the coolant, they are what differentiate one coolant from another.

    Historically in North America, conventional engine coolants have been green in color. Currently, these green coolants typically use a phosphate/ silicate mix as the main components in their inhibitor system. Conventional inhibitors like silicates and phosphates work by forming a protective blanket that actually insulates the metals from the coolant.

    These inhibitors can be characterized chemically as inorganic oxides (silicates, phosphates, borates, etc.). Because these inhibitor systems are depleted by forming a protective layer, conventional green coolants need to be changed at regular biennial intervals, typically every two years.

    Diverse technologies have been developed to protect engines from corrosion. In Europe, problems with hard water minerals forced coolant technologies to be phosphate-free. Calcium and magnesium, minerals found in hard water, react with phosphate inhibitors to form calcium or magnesium phosphate, which typically leads to scale formation on hot engine surfaces. This could lead to loss of heat transfer or corrosion under the scale.

    To replace phosphates, conventional European coolants contain a mix of inorganic oxides like silicates and inhibitors called carboxylates. Carboxylates provide corrosion protection by chemically interacting at the metallic corrosion sites, rather than by forming a layer of inhibitors that cover the total surface.

    The mix of carboxylates and silicates is also called a hybrid technology because it is a mix of conventional inorganic technology and fully carboxylate or organic technology. European engine coolants exist in various colors; typically each manufacturer requires a different color.

    In Asia, problems with water pump seals and poor heat transfer have led to the ban of coolants containing silicate. To provide protection, most coolants contain a mix of carboxylates and inorganic inhibitors like phosphates.

    These coolants are hybrids. They are distinct from the European hybrids due to the lack of silicates. Coolants from Asian OEMs can be a variety of colors including red, orange and green.

    Extended-life carboxylate-based coolants were developed to be globally acceptable and provide superior performance over existing technologies. This technology is also known as organic additive technology (OATs). Because full carboxylate coolants have no silicates, they meet the stringent requirements of the Asian specifications.


    They also meet the European antifreeze requirements because they have no phosphates. These engine coolants have developed international popularity due to having an unsurpassed corrosion protection for extended time intervals.

    It is worth noting that some people refer to these as “organic additive technology” (OAT) because the inhibitors which provide the corrosion protection are derived from carboxylic acids. In actuality, the protection is provided by neutralized carboxylic acids called carboxylates.

    This distinction is important because all coolants operate in the neutral or basic pH range (pH equal to or greater than 7). In fact, most coolants are made beginning with an acidic precursor, for example, conventional coolants based on phosphate start their lives as phosphoric acid.

    Carboxylate inhibitors provide corrosion protection by chemically interacting with the metal surfaces where needed, not by universally laying down layers, which is the case with conventional and hybrid coolants.

    The implications of this functional difference are enormous: extended life cycles, unsurpassed hightemperature aluminum protection, as well as heat transfer advantages on both hot engine surfaces and heat-rejecting radiator tubes where heat transfer is critical to optimal performance. Highquality carboxylate-based coolants have demonstrated performance of more than 32,000 hours in stationary engine applications without being changed.

    One measure of true extended life performance is that at the end of a fleet test, the used coolant can be removed from the engine and still successfully pass tests designed for fresh coolants!

    Engine Coolant Maintenance

    The aftermarket is filled with high and low-quality coolants of all colors; therefore, color is not a good indicator of the type of coolant. The best maintenance practice is to know the exact coolant required for and placed into an engine, and to control any fluid used to top-off the equipment.

    Although many techniques are available, a refractometer should be used to measure the glycol water ratio because it offers the most reliable method to identify the precise glycol content of the coolant. This determines the level of freeze protection and ensures the proper concentrations of corrosion inhibitors.

    Another preventive maintenance measure includes checking the cooling system itself to confirm that it is full and operating properly. Operating with low coolant can lead to many problems because a coolant cannot protect surfaces that it does not contact, and glycol water vapors can be corrosive. Just checking an overflow tank that is not part of the flow system can be misleading if the system is not working properly. Also, the radiator cap itself can be an integral part of the system if it is designed to hold a specific pressure. These caps may be tested to determine whether they are holding the proper pressure, which is key to the smooth operation of the system. If system pressure is operating lower than designed, the coolant will boil at a lower temperature. Rapid boiling (known as film boiling) can lead to severe corrosion due to hot spots and improper engine coolant contact.

    Lots of misinformation about the compatibility of the different types of coolant technologies exists in literature and the marketplace. While it is not good maintenance practice to mix two different coolants, it will not result in compatibility issues as long as coolants from high-quality, reputable suppliers are used.

    Coolants are generally considered to be compatible, however, mixing coolants of two different qualities results in a mixture of intermediate quality. While not a disaster, mixing a great coolant with a mediocre coolant will result in a coolant with something of less than great performance.

    Overdilution with water would have a negative effect, because the corrosion inhibitors would be present in the engine at quantities lower than originally designed. Coolants work over a range of dilutions.

    The optimum for most coolant systems is 50 percent coolant and 50 percent good-quality water, and in general coolants tolerate dilution down to about 40 percent concentrate and 60 percent water.

    Generally, coolant degradation is accounted for in manufacturers’ “recommended use” intervals. Conventional coolants containing silicates degrade primarily due to rapid inhibitor depletion. This is because silicates lay down protective layers over the system components as part of their protection mechanism.

    Therefore, coolant inhibitors must be replenished or changed regularly to ensure the surfaces will remain protected if the silicate layer is disturbed.

    In general, coolants degrade over time as the ethylene glycol breaks down into primarily glycolic and formic acids. Degradation occurs more quickly in engines operating at higher temperatures or those that allow more air into cooling systems.

    The coolant should be tested on an annual basis if it is intended to operate the system for several years between coolant changes, and particularly where the coolant is used in severe applications. One test ensures the pH is still above 7.0. Some coolant technologies can protect as low as pH 6.5, however, it is typically not good practice to allow a coolant to operate below a pH of 7.0.

    Glycol breakdown products are acidic and contribute to a drop in pH. Once a coolant has degraded, due to glycol breakdown and pH drop, engine metals are at risk for corrosion. Coolant degradation can be slowed by using coolants with extended life inhibitors and by ensuring that the equipment is operating correctly and within designated design limits.

    Testing for corrosion inhibitors is another method of checking the coolant condition. While extended life inhibitors do not typically need to be tested as long as proper usage recommendations and correct fluids are used for top-off, conventional inhibitors deplete and need to be tested.

    Other than tests for nitire and molybdate, most conventional coolants need either continual supplemental coolant additions (SCAs) or lab analysis to ensure proper performance.

    Various inhibitors, such as nitrites and molybdates, are easily monitored using test strips. Because nitrites deplete rapidly compared to other inhibitors, testing for nitrite allows one to learn the coolant’s nitrite level, but nothing else.

    Some engines need inhibitors such as nitrites to be maintained at certain levels to offer protection against cavitation corrosion, which can occur in engines with removable cylinder liners. Nitrites tend to deplete rapidly in conventional coolants and must be replenished at regular intervals.

    Carboxylate-based ELC coolants typically have lower nitrite depletion levels because the carboxylates provide the required cavitation protection and therefore much longer preventive maintenance intervals.

    Automotive original equipment manufacturers (OEMs) now recommend the use of either a hybrid coolant or a full carboxylate ELC. Conventional, standard green coolants are absent from this picture. Heavy-duty diesel OEM recommendations have a wide array of possibilities.

    In the industrial sector, some OEMs require the use of silicated coolant, while others require silicate-free for heat transfer concerns. Similarly, some require phosphate-free to avoid hard water scale deposits. This scale tends to form deposits on the hottest part of the engine, which reduces heat transfer and can induce corrosion.

    Finally, some OEMs require the use of nitrites to protect against cavitation, while others have no such requirement. Because the phenomenon of cylinder liner cavitation is design specific, all engines are not affected in the same way. It is important to understand the needs of specific equipment.

    Coolants play a vital role in preserving the engine heat balance and protecting engine components against corrosion. An estimated 60 percent of engine downtime in the commercial trucking sector is coolant related.

    Regardless of the market in which the coolant is used, it is safe to assume that coolant education relating to product chemistry, use and ongoing maintenance plays a vital role in creating a productive and profitable environment.

    Using a high-quality engine coolant from a reputable supplier and following careful preventive maintenance practices will help ensure the proper protection of an engine.


    About the Author
    Paul Fritz

        __________________________________________

        click to view fuel log View my fuel log 2015 Mirage ES 1.2 manual: 49.6 mpg (US) ... 21.1 km/L ... 4.7 L/100 km ... 59.5 mpg (Imp)


  14. #360
    Moderator Eggman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Location
    Cleveland, Ohio
    Country
    United States
    Posts
    10,154
    Thanks
    4,039
    Thanked 2,786 Times in 2,105 Posts

    LabCheck GUIDE TO COOLANT ANALYSIS AND COOLING SYSTEM MAINTENANCE

    Labcheckresources.com: GUIDE TO COOLANT ANALYSIS AND COOLING SYSTEM MAINTENANCE

    Didn't quote the entire article as I was able to attach the pdf.
    Quote Originally Posted by Castrol Labcheck
    Silicon
    Corrosion inhibitor for aluminum and seal protection; also found in some source water

    SPECIFICATIONS
    • Depends on coolant formulation; ASTM specification is not to exceed 250 ppm silicon in a conventional coolant for heavy-duty diesel engines
    • ELC coolants normally have lower levels
    • OAT, NOAT, NAPS-Free and P-OAT coolants do not have silicon
    • Automotive coolants have higher levels due to more aluminum in system

    PROBABLE CAUSE
    • Improper source water
    • Poor coolant maintenance practices
    • Mixing coolant formulations
    • Leaching from hoses

    POTENTIAL DAMAGE
    • Loss of lubrication
    • Increased ring bearing wear
    • Hot spots
    • Loss of heat transfer
    • Burnt valves
    Silica gelation (green goo)
    Maybe Labcheck can analyze the coolant?


    Attached Images Attached Images

        __________________________________________

        click to view fuel log View my fuel log 2015 Mirage ES 1.2 manual: 49.6 mpg (US) ... 21.1 km/L ... 4.7 L/100 km ... 59.5 mpg (Imp)


Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •