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Thread: Alternator delete with regen braking modification for better MPG

  1. #11
    I just found this: https://eprints.usq.edu.au/31465/1/R...rt_K_Snook.pdf


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  2. #12
    Senior Member stevedmc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fummins View Post
    I've seen people drive surprisingly long distances without a working alternator.
    I've done it three times out of necessity.

    The first time was on a 88 Mercury Tracer. The alternator went out on the way home from a fishing trip in the early morning. Instead of taking interstate home, we limped home on an old highway that wasn't busy. Whenever there weren't any other cars on the road, we shut off the headlights to save power. That very same day, I replaced the alternator.

    The second time was in the Delorean. I was at a friends house 75 miles from home. We were taking off the fuel injection system and replacing it with a carburetor. That very same day, the alternator decided to go out. I drove the car home that same evening, and as soon as I was able to get on less busy highway, I shut off the headlights to conserve power. The very next day I replaced the alternator.

    The last time for me was in the Delorean. I was on a 950 mile drive from Baton Rouge to Chicago. 750 miles into my trip, the voltmeter suddenly read 17 volts. I pulled into the nearest parts store and had them test my alternator. The voltage regulator went out. Unfortunately, they didn't have the alternator I needed anywhere in sight. I drove the rest of the way, 200 miles, into Chicago and had an Autozone order an alternator for me. Fortunately, the high voltage didn't pop any headlights and didn't cause any battery problems. The very next day, I went to Autozone, got my new alternator and installed it.

    Notice the pattern? You can limp by on a bad alternator but you are really restricting what accessories you can use and hurting your car by not providing it proper power. Do you really think your ECU likes to run on less than 12 volts? It will work for a while, but what sort of electrical damage are you causing?

    As far as the ECU goes, regulating power, this might be a fancy smancy new thing I don't know about. Virtually every single alternator built in the last 30 or 40 years has a regulator built into it. The regulator is designed to monitor the electrical system and to keep it at 13.8 volts. The ECU has nothing to do with controlling voltage. That is the regulators job. The regulator goes out and either the alternator won't charge enough or charges too much. I've experienced both on other cars

    Back in the good old days before regulators, alternators were simply called generators. They didn't have a regulator and would charge a system whether or not it was needed. That's how my 65 Mustang worked. It was reliable and good enough, but these regulator systems are much more precise.

    Anyway, end of rant. May I humbly suggest you carry a big flashlight with you for night time driving?

  3. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by stevedmc View Post
    As far as the ECU goes, regulating power, this might be a fancy smancy new thing I don't know about. Virtually every single alternator built in the last 30 or 40 years has a regulator built into it. The regulator is designed to monitor the electrical system and to keep it at 13.8 volts. The ECU has nothing to do with controlling voltage.
    It's fairly common these days for the ECU to control alternator output as a fuel-saving method.

    Even back in the 90's, Honda was doing it on some of its Civic models to save a few percent in fuel.

    The Mirage has a "smart alternator" with a regenerative braking feature in Europe/Japan (and possibly some other countries), but not in North America. See:

    Thread: REGEN braking (via alternator control programming)

        __________________________________________

        click to view fuel log View my fuel log 2014 Mirage ES 1.2 manual: 63.2 mpg (US) ... 26.9 km/L ... 3.7 L/100 km ... 75.9 mpg (Imp)


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  5. #14
    Still Plays With Cars Loren's Avatar
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    Soooo... what if, instead of a bunch of hardware mods... somebody got their hands on a Euro ECU? It's surely all done in the software.

    Or... is it one of those things you could enable with ETACS? Anybody looked?
    Simplify and add lightness.

  6. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by stevedmc View Post
    As far as the ECU goes, regulating power, this might be a fancy smancy new thing I don't know about. Virtually every single alternator built in the last 30 or 40 years has a regulator built into it. The regulator is designed to monitor the electrical system and to keep it at 13.8 volts. The ECU has nothing to do with controlling voltage. That is the regulators job. The regulator goes out and either the alternator won't charge enough or charges too much. I've experienced both on other cars


    The 90's isn't that fancy or new... I'm pretty sure the Ecm had everything to do with controlling voltage on most newer dodge and jeeps I've owned(2002,1997,2005,2003,1995). The voltage regulator was in the ecm.

    To the OP: how about running a bunch of solar panels to help trickle charge and or run a couple batteries to get more range before needing to run the alternator.
    Mirage videos:

        __________________________________________

        click to view fuel log View my fuel log 2014 Mirage SE wussie cvt edition. 1.2 automatic: 37.7 mpg (US) ... 16.0 km/L ... 6.2 L/100 km ... 45.3 mpg (Imp)


  7. #16
    Senior Member stevedmc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MetroMPG View Post
    It's fairly common these days for the ECU to control alternator output as a fuel-saving method.

    Even back in the 90's, Honda was doing it on some of its Civic models to save a few percent in fuel.

    The Mirage has a "smart alternator" with a regenerative braking feature in Europe/Japan (and possibly some other countries), but not in North America. See:

    Thread: REGEN braking (via alternator control programming)
    Well hot dog. I honestly had no idea that ECUs controlled alternators in modern cars.

    Does a this mean our alternators don't have voltage regulators or does the alternator have something even fancier that talks to the ECU?

    Honest questions here. Anything built after 1986 is a modern vehicle by my standards. Ford switched all of their trucks to fuel injection starting in 1987. Anything with EFI is modern technology by my standards.

  8. #17
    Senior Member stevedmc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fummins View Post
    The voltage regulator was in the ecm.
    Wow. I'd much rather replace an alternator than an ECU. It's a conspiracy I tell you.

    Next thing you know, they are going to stop making gasoline and force us to all drive electric cars.

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  10. #18
    Still Plays With Cars Loren's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stevedmc View Post
    Does a this mean our alternators don't have voltage regulators or does the alternator have something even fancier that talks to the ECU?
    Correct. Separate voltage regulators are largely a thing of the past. The ECU serves that function. And that allows the ECU to keep the alternator disabled for more power when you need it, and also to do what we're mostly talking about in this thread, which is to only enable the alternator when it is most efficient to do so.

    Once you start learning how all of the modern EFI and ignition systems work, they start to make sense, and you learn to appreciate their... wait for it... simplicity. All of the complicated stuff happens INSIDE the ECU. The systems themselves are actually pretty simple.

    And if you start tuning, you can relate different functions to "okay, this is what an accelerator pump in the carb would do", "changing this setting is like fitting a bigger jet in the carb", "this idle control valve is equivalent to the choke", "the slope of this ignition curve is this way for the same reason that we used vacuum advance on a distributor", and on and on. Even if your head is in the 60's... as long as you understand the basics of what the engine is doing... you can make sense of modern engine control systems.
    Simplify and add lightness.

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  12. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by stevedmc View Post

    Honest questions here. Anything built after 1986 is a modern vehicle by my standards. Ford switched all of their trucks to fuel injection starting in 1987. Anything with EFI is modern technology by my standards.
    I thought the same thing til I saw a 1987 F-150 351 with a carb. I've only ever seen the one. I guess the 351 and 460's weren't fuel injected til 1988. I worked at a wrecker for 14 years and remember way too much useless info
    Mirage videos:

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        click to view fuel log View my fuel log 2014 Mirage SE wussie cvt edition. 1.2 automatic: 37.7 mpg (US) ... 16.0 km/L ... 6.2 L/100 km ... 45.3 mpg (Imp)


  13. #20
    Administrator Daox's Avatar
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    Alright, theoretical discussion aside, lets get down to the nitty gritty. Here is the charging system description and diagram out of the service manual.

    Name:  charging system.jpg
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    Name:  system diagram.jpg
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    Now, I figure if I cut the FR (field regulator) wires, and put a switch in there, I should be able to turn the alternator on and off.


    Custom Mirage products: Cruise control kit, Glove box light, MAF sensor housing, Rear sway bar, Upper grill block

    Current project: DIY Nitrous oxide setup for ~$100

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        click to view fuel log View my fuel log 2015 Mirage DE 1.2 manual: 47.2 mpg (US) ... 20.1 km/L ... 5.0 L/100 km ... 56.7 mpg (Imp)


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