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Thread: Redline MT-LV 70W/75W gear oil for 5 speed manual

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cobrajet View Post
    I have had Redline MTL in my transmission for nearly 50,000 miles. No problems to report, and it smoothed out my shifting quite a bit.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cobrajet View Post
    I have had Redline MTL in my transmission for nearly 50,000 miles. No problems to report, and it smoothed out my shifting quite a bit.
    Redline MTL 75W80 GL-4 gear oil is probably fine. I just find it interesting that when you select a 2107 Mitsubishi Mirage ES manual, the Redline website states in bold red letter that "This product is not recommended for your vehicle."

    Meanwhile they list the OEM compatibility with the following manufacturers -

    Alfa Romeo
    Chrysler MS9224
    Citroen
    Dacia
    Daewoo
    Fiat
    Ford XT-M5-QTS
    Genuine Mtf
    Gm Auto-Trak II
    Gm Synchromesh
    Holden
    Honda/Acura Genuine MTF
    Land Rover/Range Rover MTF 0063
    MB 235.10
    Mini MTF 94
    Mini/BMW 83 22 0 403 247
    Mini/BMW 83 22 0 140 516
    Opel/Vauxhall #09 120 541
    Peugeot/Citroen PSA B71 2330 75w80
    Renault Clio PT# 77 11
    Saab MTF0063
    Tata
    Volvo MTF 97309-101161745
    Volvo M2c 200-C3
    VW/Audi G 052 532
    VW/Audi G 055 532

    For those of you that really know cars, does the Mirage share a manual transmission with anything listed above?

    The Mirage is a world car & manual models of it exist all over the world. I am interested enough to ask Redline about this. I am not bashing Redline or telling others what to use. It's just a red flag to me.



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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark View Post
    Redline MTL 75W80 GL-4 gear oil is probably fine. I just find it interesting that when you select a 2107 Mitsubishi Mirage ES manual, the Redline website states in bold red letter that "This product is not recommended for your vehicle."

    Meanwhile they list the OEM compatibility with the following manufacturers -

    Alfa Romeo
    Chrysler MS9224
    Citroen
    Dacia
    Daewoo
    Fiat
    Ford XT-M5-QTS
    Genuine Mtf
    Gm Auto-Trak II
    Gm Synchromesh
    Holden
    Honda/Acura Genuine MTF
    Land Rover/Range Rover MTF 0063
    MB 235.10
    Mini MTF 94
    Mini/BMW 83 22 0 403 247
    Mini/BMW 83 22 0 140 516
    Opel/Vauxhall #09 120 541
    Peugeot/Citroen PSA B71 2330 75w80
    Renault Clio PT# 77 11
    Saab MTF0063
    Tata
    Volvo MTF 97309-101161745
    Volvo M2c 200-C3
    VW/Audi G 052 532
    VW/Audi G 055 532

    For those of you that really know cars, does the Mirage share a manual transmission with anything listed above?

    The Mirage is a world car & manual models of it exist all over the world. I am interested enough to ask Redline about this. I am not bashing Redline or telling others what to use. It's just a red flag to me.
    The 2107 Mirage is still in pre production. That's probably why it's not compatible yet lol. But yeah, call them and ask that would be cool to hear

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    Moderator Eggman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark View Post
    For those of you that really know cars, does the Mirage share a manual transmission with anything listed above?
    There has been discussion about this in past conversations but no leads were presented that indicated the Mitsubishi FM5DB 5-speed manual transmission is found in any other model motor vehicle. Figure the odds of that happening - that little transmission is just for our favorite little car.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark View Post
    The Mirage is a world car & manual models of it exist all over the world.
    I know - right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark View Post
    I am interested enough to ask Redline about this.
    I think this is a great idea. Daox is thinking along those lines as well:

    Quote Originally Posted by Daox View Post
    Anyways, I post this info because I am thinking about using it in the Mirage. I have contacted Blackstone Labs, a third party oil analysis company. I've asked them how they recommend I proceed with testing this oil with minimal risk to my transmission. I've used them many times in the past for engine oil analysis and they're very helpful.
    So, there's at least three outside parties here we can refer to for guidance: Mitsubishi, Phillips 66 Red Line Oil, and Blackstone Labs. Mitsubishi has already stated their guidelines, and I posted their requirements a few posts back. Daox is going to reach out to Blackstone Labs. What questions can we pose to Red Line Oils about their suitability?

    Red Line Oil has an FAQ page, but it doesn't go into much detail that can help us here.

    I have a suspicion that there may be an oversight of some sort. I suspect that Red Line Oil hasn't completed their product compatibility for the Mirage, and here's why. Red Line Oil's Find Products For My Vehicle page lists motor oil, gear oil, fuel system cleaner and coolant additive as compatible with the 2014 & 2015 Mirage. However, they only list fuel system cleaner and coolant additive for the 2017 - no motor or gear oil. And as of today, they don't yet list the 2018.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark View Post
    I am not bashing Redline or telling others what to use. It's just a red flag to me.
    Yep. I totally get that. I also see it from the perspective that others reading this who aren't as knowledgeable about these things, yet want to 'modify' or 'upgrade' their car might cause significant damage. I think it's good and healthy to offer an opposing opinion. It's not like this is a private forum, and it's not a personal attack as far as I see it.

    In the end, it's (your/their) car, so do what (you/they) want.


    So, what questions can we post to Red Line Oil about their products and their suitability to our application?

    1. What are the hazards of using this oil in the FM5DB, and what should we look for?
    2. How critical is the viscosity requirements of a small little transaxle, with small little gears? I worry that force is more concentrated on smaller gear faces, but allow that may not be a problem.

    It would be pretty cool if Red Line Oil had a representative here on the forum to answer our questions.


    Here's a thought - what if we test sample gear oils with Blackstone and post the results here. We could test the factory fill and a year's use of a replacement product. I still have the factory fill, and I have an account with Blackstone so I could refill with something and send off a sample to Blackstone for testing.

    Just a thought. I hadn't really put much thought into my FM5DB gear oil. It works for me.

        __________________________________________

        click to view fuel log View my fuel log 2015 Mirage ES 1.2 manual: 49.6 mpg (US) ... 21.1 km/L ... 4.7 L/100 km ... 59.5 mpg (Imp)


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    Quote Originally Posted by Eggman View Post

    I have a suspicion that there may be an oversight of some sort. I suspect that Red Line Oil hasn't completed their product compatibility for the Mirage, and here's why. Red Line Oil's Find Products For My Vehicle page lists motor oil, gear oil, fuel system cleaner and coolant additive as compatible with the 2014 & 2015 Mirage. However, they only list fuel system cleaner and coolant additive for the 2017 - no motor or gear oil. And as of today, they don't yet list the 2018.
    Eggman - You are probably right on all counts. I hadn't checked if Redline's 75W80 GL-4 gear oil was compatible with a 2014-15 Mirage, & it is!!! If their same products aren't compatible for a 2017-19 Mirage, that would seem very odd.

    Like you & others have already stated, it is probably an oversight on their part. If they don't update their vehicle data, certain cars probably default to not being recommended or compatible. The fact that Mitsubishi Mirage didn't produce a 2016 model of the Mirage may not have helped in this area, too!

    The nice thing about this forum is that items like this can be discussed. I appreciate that! In all honesty, I wasn't overly concerned about Redline 75W/80 GL-4 gear oil in the first place. I just found it interesting that they weren't recommending it for my car, and Mitsubishi vehicles aren't listed on their OEM compatibility lists.

    Since Redline is stating their 75W/80 GL-4 gear oil is compatible with the 2014-15 Mirages, I have to believe it is compatible for all. The Mirage was obviously updated some, but I can't believe the manual transmission was changed that much. I am pulling my red flags, & my concerns have been eliminated!

    I did send Redline a short email yesterday. I shared that I owned a 2017 Mitsubishi Mirage ES (manual) that uses 75W80 GL-4 gear oil. I asked them why they don't recommended their product for my car? If they respond back, I will share that.

    Outside of Mitsubishi's factory OEM 75W80 GL-4 gear oil there are not a lot options out there besides the Redline 75W80 GL-4 product. I know this has been discussed in several other threads. Overall, 75W80 GL-4 gear oil is a fairly thin gear oil to begin with. I'm sure that already helps with the economy of the Mirage. If Daox tries his experiment with a lighter weight transmission fluid, it will be interesting to see if notices a difference.

    I grew up driving farm equipment as a kid. Older tractors used some pretty thick gear oil. I remember having to shift with two hands when it got really cold. A lot of that changed when hydraulics were added to tractors. Most new tractors use the same reservoir for their transmission & hydraulic oil (many use a trans-hydraulic oil now). Thus, gear oil has changed drastically during that time. When I bought my log splitter, I had the option of filling it with hydraulic oil or transmission fluid. I chose transmission fluid, because it was cheaper at the time.

    I plan on changing my gear oil @ 30,000 miles. It may or may not be necessary, but it surely isn't going to hurt anything. I like my Mirage enough to give it a little TLC! I may not do it as frequently after the first change, however.
    Last edited by Mark; 12-03-2018 at 01:27 AM.

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    No changes to transmission so they didnt get around to updating. Yeah let us know when they reply. Thanks

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    I found this bit of info at the SAE website regarding this lubricant standard:

    2005-05-11
    Development of New Manual Transmission Gear Oil for Fuel Economy 2005-01-2182


    Quote Originally Posted by SAE International
    We developed a new Manual Transmission Gear Oil (MTF) named LV for improved fuel economy and CO2 reduction. MTF LV is a low viscosity fluid to reduce stir losses at lower temperatures. In general, low viscosity fluids can cause metal fatigue, wear and seizure. The MTF LV was designed to overcome these problems by maintaining the oil film thickness after it is deteriorated and improving the wear characteristics with additives. As a result, the MTF LV provides equal or better durability than the current MTF. In addition, it also has good performance at low temperatures, better shift feeling characteristics, and improved oxidation stability.
    Equal or better durability?

        __________________________________________

        click to view fuel log View my fuel log 2015 Mirage ES 1.2 manual: 49.6 mpg (US) ... 21.1 km/L ... 4.7 L/100 km ... 59.5 mpg (Imp)


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    I got a reply from Blackstone Labs!

    We like to see at least 5,000-10,000 miles on the oil for a gear lube like that. Anything less and it's going to be difficult to gauge how well, or poorly, the transmission is actually wearing. Let me know if you have any other questions.

    He didn't tell me I'm crazy or anything, so I think I am going to source the gear oil and find a time to put it in.
    Custom Mirage products: Cruise control kit, Glove box light, MAF sensor housing, Rear sway bar, Upper grill block

    Current project: DIY Nitrous oxide setup for ~$100

        __________________________________________

        click to view fuel log View my fuel log 2015 Mirage DE 1.2 manual: 47.2 mpg (US) ... 20.1 km/L ... 5.0 L/100 km ... 56.7 mpg (Imp)


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    Still Plays With Cars Loren's Avatar
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    Doax, I'm not sure all of this oil testing will be of much use without a "control". You need to flush thoroughly, run OE for 5,000 miles, have that tested, flush again, and then do the same with the Redline stuff. Otherwise, you don't know what your baseline is.

    I guess the testing could tell you if the oil is HORRIBLE, and destroying your transmission. But, it's otherwise not really going to tell you whether it's any better or worse than the OE fluid.

    Personally, if this new fluid were available when I was shopping, I'd have bought it. Sounds like just the thing. MTL, but with less friction loss, better economy. I'm running MTL with no regrets.

    I think the only really big mistake you can make with manual trans is using GL5 in a trans that requires GL4. "Yellow metals" and all that. Otherwise, you can get away with a LOT of different things. Various additives are going to help the synchros work better or not, but general wear is going to be about the same regardless. That's why gear oils have specs. The oil either meet the minimum spec or it doesn't.

    The Mirage specifies a particular trans oil because it is an "eco" oil. To maintian the full fuel economy spec that the car was designed to have, you need to run that oil. (which is very likely a LOT like this "LV" spec Redline oil) But, I don't think you're going to hurt anything to run a variety of different GL4 oils. You just might have slightly more driveline loss with one vs. another, and maybe some will shift easier than others due to different additive packages and viscosities.
    Simplify and add lightness.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pryme View Post
    The 2107 Mirage is still in pre production. That's probably why it's not compatible yet lol. But yeah, call them and ask that would be cool to hear
    I emailed them, & this is their response.


    Mark,

    Thank you for contacting Red Line Oil, in your Mirage manual transaxle the MTL would be recommended, I can have Mitsubishi added to the MTL OEM Compatibility list.
    Thank you for bringing it to my attention.
    There isn’t a specific reason it isn’t listed as it is called for in late model Mitsubishi transaxles.

    Regards,

    Dave Granquist

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    Quote Originally Posted by Daox View Post
    I was poking around today looking at different gear oils. Our cars call for a 75W80 gear oil. The 75W is the engine viscosity when cold, and the 80 is the viscosity when its hot. All oil is substantially thicker when cold, so getting a low first number is a good thing as it will always be thinner when hot. You just don't want it to get too thin, or you can accelerate wear in your transmission. Here is a chart to help illustrate things.


    Therefore, I was looking to see if I could get a 70W80 or even 65W80. Alas, I can not find anything like that. However, what I did find was Redline MT-LV 70W/75W. You'll notice this doesn't follow the normal naming convention. So, I'm not exactly sure what to think about it. It is quite a bit thinner than Redline MTL 75W80 that many here have used.


    Here are the viscosity specs of the two:

    75W/80 (OE spec)
    Vis @ 100°C, CSt 10.2
    Vis @ 40°C, CSt 50

    70W/75W
    Vis @ 100°C, CSt 6.5
    Vis @ 40°C, CSt 9.8


    For reference, 40C is 104F. That already seems warm for a manual transmission, but I haven't measured my transmission's temperature. Anyway, at 104F, you can see the 70W/75W is 5 times thinner than the 75W80 oil. Thats a heck of a lot less churning going on. Less churning means more power and efficiency.

    FYI

    There is another similar product available, made by ROWE here in Germany, and sold in most other countries.

    It is labeled:

    ROWE Hightec Topgear 75W80S GL -4/5

    is 100% fully synthetic, PAO and ester based.

    It meets/ complies with:
    BMW MTF LT-1/-2/-3/-4
    Fiat 9.55550-MZ2
    Ford WSS-M2C200-D2
    MB 235.10
    PSA 9730 A2/A8/B 71 2330
    Toyota JWS 227
    VW G009 317/G052 171/G52 178/G052 512/G052
    532/G052 527/G052 726/G052 798/G055 726


    It has following chief properties:

    Viscosity at +40°C 37.8 mm²/s
    Viscosity at 100′C 7.5 mm²/s
    Meets GL4 and GL5 (will not corrode brass synchronizers, yet also meets GL5)

    Pour point -44′C
    Viscosity index (accoding to ASTM D-7042) 173




    As you can see from the figures, it is overall thinner than Redline MTL 75W80.
    It is also thinner than the OEM oil at room temperature, easy to tell, but I have no figures for the OEM product.

    I have had it in my MT for some years now. It is probably the best product on the market and very well suited for our cars. Nill shifting or other issues.

    The Redline MT-LV 70W/75W product is so thin and so far off data-wise, I would not consider using it. Just too thin.
    If Mitsubishi thought our gearboxes would last with that thin oil, they would have put something thinner in for the sake of saving fuel. They did not.


    The datasheet:

    http://rowe-cloud.de/pi.php?artNr=25066&lang=gb


    EDIT:

    Price starts at around €8 per Liter, being about USD $9. Our cars need about 1.6Liters.


    Last edited by foama; 12-12-2018 at 08:14 AM.

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