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Thread: COVID-19 Discussion

  1. #371
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    Quote Originally Posted by Top_Fuel View Post
    The CDC just answered that question yesterday...



    Based on the CDC's numbers, that would mean 12,000 in the US have died from COVID alone.

    You didn't see this on cable news last night...because they're too busy running "US LEADS WORLD IN COVID CASES" headlines.


    This latest CDC chart breaks down the COVID-19 survival rate by age groups:




    If you're an otherwise healthy person, under 70, not living in a nursing home, it's a pretty safe bet that you aren't going to die from COVID.

    I already knew the answer when I asked the question. Every life is precious, & I don't want to make light of that.

    It's pretty fair to state that less than 10% of the COVID-19 deaths are caused by COVID-19 alone.

    That doesn't take away from the fact that people with pre-existing conditions are at a higher risk. We all need to do our part to protect them, too. I have only seen my elderly parents once since the pandemic has hit, because they would be a higher risk. My brother who lives nearby them also keeps his distance, because he works at a very large shipyard that employs over 2,000 employees (some cases of COVID-19 have appeared there).

    I don't wear a mask in public because our Wisconsin Governor has mandated it. I wear a mask out of respect for those who have to work in public businesses. Sadly, the mask mandate alone is not making a difference. Cases in Wisconsin have really gone up lately. My county has tripled the number of cases in just the past couple weeks. In my county, however, triple is not a huge number overall. We were at 41 cases for a good stretch of time. It's climbed to 129 cases in just a couple weeks.

    By comparison, a neighboring county has 927 cases. The difference can probably be linked to having a tourist attraction town (Wisconsin Dells) in the corner of that county. Wisconsin universities are were many new cases are coming from.


    Last edited by Mark; 09-26-2020 at 04:10 PM.

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  3. #372
    Senior Member Dirk Diggler's Avatar
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    The number of Americans with pre-existing conditions is in the millions too. Those are good points Mark.

  4. #373
    My county was up to 21 cases for a day but usually hovers around 15 active. Masks aren't mandatory where I live but places like walsmart and costco will ask you to wear one. In the city they had 650 or so active last time I looked.

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  5. #374
    Senior Member AtomicPunk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eggman View Post
    This is an interesting question.

    So the ongoing concern among medical professionals is that acquiring this disease can make managing all the other conditions impossible. For example, Medical Care can manage high blood pressure, blood sugar, blood clots that can cause strokes & heart attacks, obesity, etc. Medical professionals can even manage multiple such conditions in one patient.

    A compromised immune system such as with the elderly, cancer patients, and organ transplant recipients makes treating these conditions tricky and difficult.

    This is where current thinking gets cloudy and confused. Where before certain conditions or combinations thereof can be managed, acquiring SARS-COVID19 combined with these other conditions can end a life. Set aside the pre-existing conditions - COVID19 has killed people who were healthy and without any other pre-existing condition. Hospitals were overwhelmed (Spain, Italy, New York, etc.) and were unable to treat the number of patients showing up at their door. Morale in the medical centers is affected and caregivers can acquire the disease, both impairing the medical response.


    Think of this in terms of lawn care.

    You have a lawn, and tend to it. You keep it trim and neat, and treat for dandelions before they take over the lawn you put so much time into. But one of your neighbors doesn't see things the way you do, and they have a few dandelions in their lawn. In fact, several neighbors don't seem to care, and their lawns are filled with dandelions . It's only a matter of time before their dandelions seed your lawn and your lawn becomes infested with them too.


    It's a sad situation. It doesn't make sense to question the training and advice of medical professionals who have made it their life's work to become experts in their field (I know better than the brain surgeon, so I'll do it my own way!) And there is no rationale in contributing to spreading this or any other disease - that line of thought doesn't add up. Yet some folks think they know better. See also: sea lawyer.
    New York was never overwhelmed. They never got to the point of sending numerous cases to the USS Comfort or the Javits Center. Additionally, New Yorkers were so Christianphobic that they demanded that charity relief volunteer hospital from Samaritan's Purse LEAVE because they disagree with same-sex marriage; never mind that they put themselves on the front line to try and save lives. It was an astoundingly revealing display of where New York City's priorities are.

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  7. #375
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    Quote Originally Posted by AtomicPunk View Post
    New York was never overwhelmed. They never got to the point of sending numerous cases to the USS Comfort or the Javits Center. Additionally, New Yorkers were so Christianphobic that they demanded that charity relief volunteer hospital from Samaritan's Purse LEAVE because they disagree with same-sex marriage; never mind that they put themselves on the front line to try and save lives. It was an astoundingly revealing display of where New York City's priorities are.
    I read about that, unbelievable how "woke" politics trumps science and saving lives. I was embarrassed to call myself a Bill Maher liberal that day.

  8. #376
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    Quote Originally Posted by AtomicPunk View Post
    New York was never overwhelmed. They never got to the point of sending numerous cases to the USS Comfort or the Javits Center.
    Hospitals in NYC and Michigan were overwhelmed. So much so that they asked for help.

    Medical staff from Cleveland assisted New York-Presbyterian and Henry Ford Hospital in Michigan.

    Quote Originally Posted by ClevelandClinic.org
    Cleveland Clinic Sends Caregivers To New York, Michigan To Assist In COVID-19 Efforts
    15 May, 2020

    Cleveland Clinic Caregivers Depart for Henry Ford Hospital
    April 22, 2020

    Thirteen Cleveland Clinic nurses departed from Avon Hospital for Michigan on Wednesday, April 22. They will spend up to four weeks at various Henry Ford Hospital locations treating COVID-19 patients.

    Cleveland Clinic Caregivers Depart for New York-Presbyterian
    April 17, 2020

    Twenty five Cleveland Clinic caregivers (10 physicians and 15 nurses) departed Cleveland Hopkins Airport for Newark, New Jersey on Friday, April 17. They will spend up to four weeks in various New York-Presbyterian Hospitals throughout New York City. United donated round trip airfare for our caregivers.

    Details About Cleveland Clinic Assisting in New York and Michigan

    Cleveland Clinic reached out health systems in the hardest hit areas of the country to provide assistance.

    New York and Michigan requested help of available caregivers including critical care nurses, nurse practitioners, board-certified critical care and emergency medicine physicians, physician assistants and CT and X-ray technicians.

    Cleveland Clinic is supportive of providing caregivers to help during this time and we remain well-staffed to handle any anticipated surge in the states where we have hospitals. The decision to serve is completely voluntary for our caregivers.


    Quote Originally Posted by AtomicPunk View Post
    Additionally, New Yorkers were so Christianphobic that they demanded that charity relief volunteer hospital from Samaritan's Purse LEAVE because they disagree with same-sex marriage; never mind that they put themselves on the front line to try and save lives. It was an astoundingly revealing display of where New York City's priorities are.
    Were they fully licensed and certified to practice? Did those hospitals get the help they needed from other sources? AtomicPunk, I can't answer for why anyone would turn down assistance from a religious sect but I suspect there may be more to the story.

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  9. #377
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    This article from ABC news says they suspended licensing requirements.

    Doctors, nurses from across the US step up to help NYC on the coronavirus front lines

    Jamie Edens and Ryan Ward arrived in New York City last week after a whirlwind road trip from their home in Tulsa, Oklahoma. The two intensive care-unit nurses were on their way to help fight the novel coronavirus.

    New York state has been hit the hardest by the virus, with more cases than any other state and more deaths than the 9/11 terror attacks. With so much need, particularly in New York City, Gov. Andrew Cuomo has temporarily suspended licensing requirements as part of a plea for doctors and nurses from out of state to come and help.

    Medical professionals like Edens and Ward have heeded his call, responding to an online post from a staffing agency seeking crisis-traveling nurses.

    ...

    In video diaries, in which they spoke about the scenes inside the hospitals over their first few days, Ward and Edens both described the staff as overworked.

    "It is bad," Ward said. "They are absolutely overloaded. Patients are incredibly sick. Everyone's [on a ventilator]. Everybody's COVID. It's all the things you would absolutely expect. The nurses, they're overworked. They're having a hard time and they've been doing this for weeks."

    ...

    With nearly 150,000 cases of COVID-19 in the state -- over three times that of New Jersey, which has the second most cases -- many health care workers within New York are also stepping out of their specialties to help with the crisis.

    Dr. William Levine, head of orthopedic surgery at New York-Presbyterian Hospital and one of the top orthopedic surgeons in the city, previously operated on shoulders and elbows. Now, he and one of his residents, Dr. Lynn Ann Forrester, are working 12-hour shifts in the emergency room, treating COVID-19 patients.

    "I was doing stuff that I haven't done in 25 years," Levine said. "We have all these ICU beds that never existed and all these patients that are filling those beds who are ventilated, they're sick and they need care that our emergency room teams and our regular ICU teams cannot cover by themselves — just can't do it."

    Levine said the situation has caused him to break down in tears more "in the last couple of weeks than in the last couple of years," but then "the weight of this whole experience catches up with you."

    Levine won't stop working on COVID-19 patients until they get word that the number of cases has already plateaued and begun dropping, he said. With 2,400 coronavirus patients in the New York-Presbyterian system and about 650 of them on ventilators, he said they've "still got a lot of work to do and a lot of help to get us past this point."
    So this story answers the question if licensing was a factor in that religious sect thing. Still, that doesn't negate the fact that New York hospitals were getting overwhelmed.

    As far as dealing with the disease, it appears the lockdown was a large factor in keeping things from getting even worse.

    And it continues to be effective.

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  10. #378
    Senior Member AtomicPunk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eggman View Post
    Hospitals in NYC and Michigan were overwhelmed. So much so that they asked for help.

    Medical staff from Cleveland assisted New York-Presbyterian and Henry Ford Hospital in Michigan.






    Were they fully licensed and certified to practice? Did those hospitals get the help they needed from other sources? AtomicPunk, I can't answer for why anyone would turn down assistance from a religious sect but I suspect there may be more to the story.

    Licensing wasnt the issue, beliefs were. And Samaritan's Purse isn't a "sect", they are are a Christian faith based care organization who have set up similar operations in Ebola outbreaks. You know, Ebola, which makes Covid-19 look like the flu? Where the survival rate is 50%, and the rest die bleeding out of every orifice? But still they are called to go.

    But this was the reponse they got in New York.:
    "Agree with me before you dare offer to help me". If New York was truly overwhelmed, it only makes this attitude more egregious. Imagine youre drowning but you won't accept a life preserver from someone who believes differently than you do...the "more to the story" seems to be some during this pandemic chose politics over help. As a wise man once said, "I guess it depends on where one gets their news".


    NYC City Council Speaker Demands ‘Bigoted’ Christian Relief Organization Samaritan’s Purse Leave City
    By Emily Zanotti
    May 3, 2020 DailyWire.com

    Volunteers from the International Christian relief organization Samaritans Purse set up an Emergency Field Hospital for patients suffering from the coronavirus in Central Park across Fifth Avenue from Mt. Sinai Hospital on March 30, 2020 in New York.

    New York City Council Speaker Corey Johnson attacked Samaritan’s Purse, a Christian relief organization operating an “overflow” hospital for coronavirus patients who do not need intensive care, calling the group “bigoted” because it believes in the traditional definition of marriage, and demanding that the group be booted from New York City now that the coronavirus pandemic seems to be slowing.

    SamaritanÂ’s Purse set up a field hospital in Central Park last month, pledging to assist New York hospitals overwhelmed by COVID-19 patients. The 60-bed assistance center, The Daily Wire reported at the time, was designed to provide care to those individuals who did not need ventilators or to spend time in respiratory ICUs.

    LGBT activists and progressive New Yorkers immediately raised an alarm and demanded to know whether Samaritan’s Purse, which opposes abortion and same-sex marriage, would turn away openly gay patients. NYC blog Gothamist worried that there were “growing fears that some New Yorkers could face discrimination and substandard care from the religious organization.”

    The furor became so aggressive that NYC mayor Bill de Blasio pledged to keep an eye on SamaritanÂ’s Purse, and even made the organization sign an agreement assuring the city that no LGBT individuals would be turned away.

    It does not appear that Samaritan’s Purse turned away any patient requesting treatment, but Johnson demanded the “discriminatory” organization be banished from NYC as soon as possible, regardless.


    “It is time for Samaritan’s Purse to leave NYC. This group, led by the notoriously bigoted, hate-spewing Franklin Graham, came at a time when our city couldn’t in good conscience turn away any offer of help. That time has passed,” Johnson tweeted Saturday.


    “Their continued presence here is an affront to our values of inclusion, and is painful for all New Yorkers who care deeply about the LGBTQ community,” he said. “I’m aware that our battle against COVID-19 is still ongoing, and that our health care system—and the amazing workers who have been the heroes of this unprecedented time in our history—still needs support.”

    Samaritan’s Purse healthcare workers, though, he seems to indicate, are a notable exception to the title of “hero.”

    “The @NYCCouncil is committed to supporting those workers and protecting our city’s public health. But as a city that values diversity and compassion for all, we can’t continue allowing a group with their track record to remain here when we’re past the point they’re needed,” Johnson whined.


    He then called on Mount Sinai health system — the health system that saw the vast majority of coronavirus patients — to end its contract with Samaritan’s Purse, citing leader Franklin Graham’s position on social issues.

    “Mount Sinai must sever its relationship with Samaritan’s Purse. Its leader calls the LGBTQ community ‘detestable’ and ‘immoral.’ He says being gay is ‘an affront to God,’ and refers to gay Christians as ‘the enemy,” Johnson wrote without citation.

    He then railed against an agreement Samaritan’s Purse makes healthcare providers sign, attesting that they abide by Christian values: “Samaritan’s Purse requires its volunteers to agree to a written affirmation ‘that marriage is exclusively the union of one genetic male and one genetic female.’ Hate has no place in our beautiful city.”

    It took only moments for Johnson to meet with a wave of criticism on social media, including from fellow leftists, who accused the City Council speaker of being ungrateful and of stoking the fires of division.

    “I’m 100% usually behind @NYCSpeakerCoJo but this statement is most ungracious thing I have ever heard him utter. Appreciate sentiment behind it but didn’t the group specifically agree to treat everyone equally as a pretense of operating here? Do we have proof they forsook this?” one vocal critic said. “Because if they stuck to their promise and put the work in & treated every single person with the same care it seems to me to be a lesson to seize on to try to educate and change that group. Scorning them in the wake of their service only serves to deepen moral dividing lines.”

    Regardless of how Johnson feels, SamaritanÂ’s Purse says it will wrap up its mission in New York City in two weeks.
    Last edited by AtomicPunk; 09-27-2020 at 01:37 PM.

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  12. #379
    Senior Member dspace9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AtomicPunk View Post
    Licensing wasnt the issue, beliefs were. And Samaritan's Purse isn't a "sect", they are are a Christian faith based care organization who have set up similar operations in Ebola outbreaks. You know, Ebola, which makes Covid-19 look like the flu? Where the survival rate is 50%, and the rest die bleeding out of every orifice? But still they are called to go.
    This thread has hit all the points on a list of "topics to avoid on a subcompact car forum" - my point earlier is that I can't blame anyone for being skeptical when non-government agencies start getting public purse dollars to administer health care and other essential services. This is all because of the French and American revolutions and the separation of church and state. But where would we be without the Red Cross and Crescent? I'm sure all those young nurses during world wars were pacifists; but they didn't sit idly by, either.

    Too bad things get so partisan. At the same time, keep in mind the LBGT community has been pretty terribly persecuted and continues to be more more likely to experience persecutions, etc. not just in the USA, but anywhere in the world basically.

    So the idea of health care for some is just the logical conclusion of that scary idea.

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  14. #380
    Senior Member Dirk Diggler's Avatar
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    I'm as atheist as they come, but as someone who works in healthcare you know to never to look a gift horse in the mouth. The point is human lives trump personal belief systems or at least it should. With many hospital being associated with Catholicism like St. Judes and Judaism like Cedar Sinai it's been well demonstrated healthcare workers with faith or none like myself, still fully respect being medical professionals first and foremost. Being gay in NYC would in no way impact the level of care they would receive by that Christian medical association. For De Blasio to even suggest that is an egregious affront and political posturing at its finest IMO.



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