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Thread: Rev-matching vs not matching downshifts?

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    Only time I use the clutch upshifting 1st and reverse. Downshifting never except snow, icy conditions.



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    Quote Originally Posted by DottandDolores View Post
    Only time I use the clutch upshifting 1st and reverse. Downshifting never except snow, icy conditions.
    When l "punch the clutch" shifting from 2nd to 3rd, it shoots the revs up and feels like a smoother shift than if l slowly release the clutch after shifting. l don't know maybe l'm doing it wrong.
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    Still Plays With Cars Loren's Avatar
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    It's really cumbersome to try to explain proper shifting technique at more than a basic level. Much easier to show.

    Mark, yes, it's true... there's not physical way for any manual transmission to prevent you from botching a downshift and zinging the engine to 10,000 rpm by letting the clutch out in the wrong gear at the wrong speed. The ECU doesn't have control of the clutch, so it can't force it to release. "It's all you" at that point.

    Okay, some slightly beyond basic tips, if I can think of any:

    Upshifting: the ideal is to do it quickly enough that you catch the revs as they fall. You don't need to, and shouldn't try to, "rev up" between shifts. Just shift and release the clutch quickly enough that as you let the clutch out, the revs are matched.

    I found that this was slightly awkward with the Mirage when I first bought it because it doesn't "want" to shift quickly. For me, fitting a heavier shift knob took care of the problem. It put a little more mass behind the shift and allowed for quicker shifting without "forcing it". You could get into a whole conversation about whether that heavier knob is putting more force on the synchros and wearing them quicker... I'm not going to go there, it probably is. But, it's MUCH more satisfying to drive that way.

    If you're shifting slowly enough that the revs are below optimal when you're releasing the clutch, then simply let the clutch out SLIGHTLY slower to smooth the engagement. Don't overthink it, it'll be fine. Just go for "smooth and quick" as best you can.

    Downshifting: You don't "have" to rev match. I didn't even know about rev-matching until after I'd been driving manual transmissions for about 10 years! My mother taught me, and she taught me what she knew... which was the most basic level. She did talk about "double clutching", but I never drove anything that required it, so I never really learned it.

    If you're going to rev-match, it's just a slight blip as soon as you slip the transmission out of gear to allow you to slip it into the lower gear... and make that shift just as you would the upshift above. The revs are falling right into the optimal place as you complete the shift.

    It all takes practice. And it's all a bit easier if you actually REV the engine. If you're just puttering around at 2000-2500 rpm, you're in "baby it" mode. Nearly impossible to hurt anything driving like that no matter how you drive! If you want to feel what the car is doing, try shifting at 4000-5000 rpm. Your mistakes will be more evident (mismatched revs will be more readily felt), and when you get it right, it will feel gloriously good.

    I offered to do a video of all this stuff a while back. Got crickets. The offer still stands. It wouldn't be quite as useful as actually being IN the car, but I could talk you through what I was doing while I was doing it and it would be more effective than just text.
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    Still Plays With Cars Loren's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DottandDolores View Post
    Only time I use the clutch upshifting 1st and reverse. Downshifting never except snow, icy conditions.
    I think clutchless shifting is huge fun! But, if there's traffic (and there always is here), I like the surety that comes from using the clutch.

    That said, every MT that I drive regularly, I make sure I know that I can shift it up and down without the clutch. It's a handy skill when your clutch hydraulics (or clutch cable) give up and you're stuck with no clutch! And, as mentioned, it's a fun challenge. It definitely drives home (see what I did there?) the point of rev-matching.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loren View Post
    It's really cumbersome to try to explain proper shifting technique at more than a basic level. Much easier to show.

    Mark, yes, it's true... there's not physical way for any manual transmission to prevent you from botching a downshift and zinging the engine to 10,000 rpm by letting the clutch out in the wrong gear at the wrong speed. The ECU doesn't have control of the clutch, so it can't force it to release. "It's all you" at that point.

    Okay, some slightly beyond basic tips, if I can think of any:

    Upshifting: the ideal is to do it quickly enough that you catch the revs as they fall. You don't need to, and shouldn't try to, "rev up" between shifts. Just shift and release the clutch quickly enough that as you let the clutch out, the revs are matched.

    I found that this was slightly awkward with the Mirage when I first bought it because it doesn't "want" to shift quickly. For me, fitting a heavier shift knob took care of the problem. It put a little more mass behind the shift and allowed for quicker shifting without "forcing it". You could get into a whole conversation about whether that heavier knob is putting more force on the synchros and wearing them quicker... I'm not going to go there, it probably is. But, it's MUCH more satisfying to drive that way.

    If you're shifting slowly enough that the revs are below optimal when you're releasing the clutch, then simply let the clutch out SLIGHTLY slower to smooth the engagement. Don't overthink it, it'll be fine. Just go for "smooth and quick" as best you can.

    Downshifting: You don't "have" to rev match. I didn't even know about rev-matching until after I'd been driving manual transmissions for about 10 years! My mother taught me, and she taught me what she knew... which was the most basic level. She did talk about "double clutching", but I never drove anything that required it, so I never really learned it.

    If you're going to rev-match, it's just a slight blip as soon as you slip the transmission out of gear to allow you to slip it into the lower gear... and make that shift just as you would the upshift above. The revs are falling right into the optimal place as you complete the shift.

    It all takes practice. And it's all a bit easier if you actually REV the engine. If you're just puttering around at 2000-2500 rpm, you're in "baby it" mode. Nearly impossible to hurt anything driving like that no matter how you drive! If you want to feel what the car is doing, try shifting at 4000-5000 rpm. Your mistakes will be more evident (mismatched revs will be more readily felt), and when you get it right, it will feel gloriously good.

    I offered to do a video of all this stuff a while back. Got crickets. The offer still stands. It wouldn't be quite as useful as actually being IN the car, but I could talk you through what I was doing while I was doing it and it would be more effective than just text.
    l would watch it l watched a lot of videos but the same thing remains...overthinking...bc l'm new to it it'll take time like you said...l know what you mean about "forcing it" into gear...l don't slam it into gear but it takes a second longer which causes jerking (sometimes)...l might even post a video going over my rev-matching, what weighted shift knob do you use? All the shift knobs l got had to be returned bc they didn't line the H pattern up when installed.
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    Still Plays With Cars Loren's Avatar
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    This isn't exactly the knob that I have, but it's pretty close and about the same price. I think I paid $14.99 for mine.

    https://www.amazon.com/dp/B077N8MN8M/

    Just a basic chrome plated hunk of steel. No H-pattern required. Just smooooooth chrome. (gets hot as fxxk in the sun, btw)
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  8. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loren View Post
    (gets hot as fxxk in the sun, btw)
    Hahaha, yeah l had an off center one and when l got in after work l put my hand on the shifter and screamed at how hot it got lol, what's even funnier is the guy next to me just stared at me like l had 2 heads lol.
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    Still Plays With Cars Loren's Avatar
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    When the knob is hot, I figure it just forces good habits. I don't rest my hand on the shifter, and I shift quicker. Win-win!

    Here's a video I just found quickly. I like it because it's a dual camera set up, and pretty well done. Ignore the fact that he's using a heel-toe, just pay attention to the throttle blip.

    Also, watch his tach. When he upshifts, the tach falls neatly right into place for the next gear, very fluid. Similar on a proper downshift. When you let the clutch out on the downshift, the momentum of the car shouldn't be speeding up the engine, it should be right there in the right place and the clutch release should be almost imperceptible... and you can get right back into accelerating at the same pace.

    If you're good, you should be able make your manual trans feel like an automatic (not a CVT). Just bang off perfectly smooth upshifts and downshifts that your passengers don't even notice.



    I can still do a video for the Mirage, it just won't be as detailed as this one. I have a headrest mount for my phone that I can set up for a single-shot view of whatever I can manage to get into the frame.

    Bear in mind that my Mirage has a weighted shift knob, and a slightly lightened flywheel. Minor differences, but I suppose they do have an effect.

    I'll see if I can get motivated tomorrow.
    Simplify and add lightness.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MirageRally View Post
    When l "punch the clutch" shifting from 2nd to 3rd, it shoots the revs up and feels like a smoother shift than if l slowly release the clutch after shifting. l don't know maybe l'm doing it wrong.
    It seems like we have had this discussion before, but maybe it was with someone else? Your left foot/clutch work in unison with your right foot/gas. When your left foot pushes in the clutch to shift, your right foot lifts completely off the gas. That's shifting a manual car. After the shift is done & clutch is back out, you push on the throttle again.

    It doesn't matter what I am driving (manual car, motorcycle, or even a manual ATV that's clutchless).

    Motorcycle (left hand/clutch, left foot/shifter, right hand/throttle (& front brakes), right foot/rear brakes) - Every time I squeeze the clutch with my left hand, I release the throttle with my right hand. As the clutch grabs again, I accelerate again. Momentum keeps you going smoothly.

    ATV - Since it doesn't have a clutch, I just let up on gas to shift to the next gear. Let up on gas, shift up, accelerate again. Every time I shift, I just let up on the gas.

    Car - Push in clutch & let up on the gas at the same time. Make the shift, let out the clutch, and accelerate again. When that clutch goes in, you lift your foot off the gas to shift. During the actual shift I am not giving a car, motorcycle, or ATV any gas. If I am accelerating at a faster rate than normal, I just do everything quicker.

    If I slow down to a stop, I brake & shift back down to 1st after I stop. If I am taking a tight curve without having to stop, I slow down and shift to whatever gear I need to come out of that curve (usually 2nd or 3rd - depending on how much I had to slow down to make the maneuver).

    A simple video on foot work only may help - Here is a 2 minute clip on just footwork -

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWvl-TbLjEQ


    Here is another clip showing all of the parts at the same time. I would skip to about 11 minutes into the clip -

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kTQCvLWLeLM

  11. #20
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    Sooo after watching the video. lt seems to me that he uses the same amount of throttle blip for each gear when downshifting correct? Also l love watching this guys youtube videos on car reviews.


    Approved by the one and only MirageRally...lol

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