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Thread: Weed!

  1. #61
    Senior Member Dirk Diggler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AtomicPunk View Post
    Look up the relationship between marijuana and psychosis, and marijuana and schizophrenia. An inconvenient truth.
    Recent article citing said author skewed the data from the actual researchers, far from an inconvenient truth.

    "Even more damning is some of the criticism from the folks whose expertise Berenson claims to be drawing from. Ziva Cooper is the research director for UCLA’s Cannabis Research Initiative and served as a committee member on the 468-page National Academy of Sciences, Engineering, and Medicine report cited by Berenson and Gladwell. In a conversation with Rolling Stone, Cooper asserts that Berenson completely misunderstood the report’s conclusions around schizophrenia. “To say that we concluded cannabis causes schizophrenia, it’s just wrong, and it’s meant to precipitate fear,” she says. Rather, the scientists found an association between schizophrenia and cannabis use, but do not yet have enough evidence to determine causality. As Cooper puts it: “People who have schizophrenia are also known to be very heavy tobacco smokers, but we don’t say that tobacco causes schizophrenia.”

    The idea that weed causes psychosis and schizophrenia is Berenson’s core argument, and the research review Cooper refers to is an important piece of evidence for that argument. I’m not a scientist, and I’m not a statistician, but it sure doesn’t look good when the people whose research you draw your conclusions from announce that you have misinterpreted their research.

    Putting aside the issue of whether Berenson bothered to contact a group of researchers he purports to be helping, one way to determine whether Berenson is a troll is to gently offer some nuance and perspective on the claims he’s making, and see how he responds. Last week, he tweeted about shootings at “legal” marijuana dispensaries, implying that marijuana has an inherent ability to spark violence. However, clicking through to the news stories, I understood that most of the dispensaries were actually illicit, unlicensed businesses. I wondered if Berenson was merely ill-informed, so I pointed the context out to him. He did not respond.

    Gladwell and Berenson both advocate for pot decriminalization as an alternative to legalization — yet decriminalization necessitates the continuation of the illicit market. Hardly anyone wants to grow their own pot, just as hardly anyone wants to grow their own food. As long as the people growing and selling pot are doing so illegally, marijuana will continue to cause violence and damage.

    This is because marijuana is the most popular illegal drug in the world. There is enormous demand for it. As Gladwell himself acknowledges, albeit parenthetically, legality is not a predictor of use. If legal outlets don’t fill the demand for pot, criminals will. And a criminal business is not a safe business. Criminals cannot resolve disputes in the courts, so they do so with guns, and with violence.

    This is why the illicit marijuana-growing capital of America, Humboldt County, has nearly twice the average rate of violent crime. This is why there is a culture of silence around the widespread sexual abuse and exploitation of women on marijuana farms, hundreds of whom go missing every year.

    The most dangerous thing about marijuana is its illegality.

    If Berenson were genuinely concerned about public safety, he might acknowledge that illegal weed is more harmful than legal weed on the consumer end, as well. Illicitly produced marijuana is not being tested for pesticides, mold, or other contaminants. The chemicals used on illegal weed are known carcinogens and known neurotoxins. This stuff is very bad for you, and we know that criminal cannabis farms can be rather cavalier about increasing production to maximize profit — the ground and the watersheds around illicit cannabis farms contain terrifying amounts of these chemicals.

    So while Berenson worries about the profit motivations behind legal marijuana operators, he neglects to acknowledge that the existing illegal operators are also motivated by profit, in a much scarier way.

    And while there is no definitive proof that smoking marijuana causes schizophrenia, there sure as hell is proof that, because of its illegality, smoking marijuana can ruin your life. Yes, there are not very many people who are serving time in prison for cannabis offenses, but pot possession remains the most common reason for arrest in America. About 700,000 people a year are caught up in an expensive criminal justice nightmare simply because they got high. If the arrest leads to a conviction, it could follow you forever, affecting your ability to vote, apply for a loan, or get a job. And if you’re lucky, rich, or white enough to escape arrest as a pot smoker, your employer and your landlord still have the right to fire or evict you for using cannabis — even if you do so in a legal state.

    Of course, the possible association between schizophrenia and cannabis is nothing to be dismissive about. I’ve long taken the limited conclusions of that research very seriously. One of my closest friends has now been through two psychotic episodes, and I cared for her during both. To say I am obsessive about making sure she doesn’t smoke weed would be an understatement.

    But to portray yourself as the patron saint of unheralded research, and then to have those researchers say that you completely misunderstood — it’s difficult for me to see Berenson as sincere. Still, he’s correct that more research into cannabis is desperately needed. He’s correct in guessing that the rise of Big Pot would probably not be a good thing. And he’s correct in saying that marijuana businesses and advocates often distort reality and research to fit their claims.

    Here’s the thing though. You know who else is driven by profits to stretch the truth? Someone trying to sell copies of his book." - Rolling Stone



  2. #62
    Senior Member dspace9's Avatar
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    Correlation is not causation, isn't that the saying in statistics? People with mental illness unfortunately are probably prone to substance abuse, in order to escape their unfortunate circumstances. I read a really touching piece a few months ago about a middle-aged guy successful in his field etc.., but his brother suffered from schizophrenia all his life; talked about the chain smoking aspect that is so common. His brother was homeless, this and that. Sad story but he said his brother was lots of sound and bluster, but he never harmed anyone.

    So we have to be compassionate, and people can have pretty mean tones. Not trying to get all righteous or anything

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  4. #63
    Moderator inuvik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dirk Diggler View Post
    Recent article citing said author skewed the data from the actual researchers, far from an inconvenient truth.

    "Even more damning is some of the criticism from the folks whose expertise Berenson claims to be drawing from. Ziva Cooper is the research director for UCLA’s Cannabis Research Initiative and served as a committee member on the 468-page National Academy of Sciences, Engineering, and Medicine report cited by Berenson and Gladwell. In a conversation with Rolling Stone, Cooper asserts that Berenson completely misunderstood the report’s conclusions around schizophrenia. “To say that we concluded cannabis causes schizophrenia, it’s just wrong, and it’s meant to precipitate fear,” she says. Rather, the scientists found an association between schizophrenia and cannabis use, but do not yet have enough evidence to determine causality. As Cooper puts it: “People who have schizophrenia are also known to be very heavy tobacco smokers, but we don’t say that tobacco causes schizophrenia.”

    The idea that weed causes psychosis and schizophrenia is Berenson’s core argument, and the research review Cooper refers to is an important piece of evidence for that argument. I’m not a scientist, and I’m not a statistician, but it sure doesn’t look good when the people whose research you draw your conclusions from announce that you have misinterpreted their research.

    Putting aside the issue of whether Berenson bothered to contact a group of researchers he purports to be helping, one way to determine whether Berenson is a troll is to gently offer some nuance and perspective on the claims he’s making, and see how he responds. Last week, he tweeted about shootings at “legal” marijuana dispensaries, implying that marijuana has an inherent ability to spark violence. However, clicking through to the news stories, I understood that most of the dispensaries were actually illicit, unlicensed businesses. I wondered if Berenson was merely ill-informed, so I pointed the context out to him. He did not respond.

    Gladwell and Berenson both advocate for pot decriminalization as an alternative to legalization — yet decriminalization necessitates the continuation of the illicit market. Hardly anyone wants to grow their own pot, just as hardly anyone wants to grow their own food. As long as the people growing and selling pot are doing so illegally, marijuana will continue to cause violence and damage.

    This is because marijuana is the most popular illegal drug in the world. There is enormous demand for it. As Gladwell himself acknowledges, albeit parenthetically, legality is not a predictor of use. If legal outlets don’t fill the demand for pot, criminals will. And a criminal business is not a safe business. Criminals cannot resolve disputes in the courts, so they do so with guns, and with violence.

    This is why the illicit marijuana-growing capital of America, Humboldt County, has nearly twice the average rate of violent crime. This is why there is a culture of silence around the widespread sexual abuse and exploitation of women on marijuana farms, hundreds of whom go missing every year.

    The most dangerous thing about marijuana is its illegality.

    If Berenson were genuinely concerned about public safety, he might acknowledge that illegal weed is more harmful than legal weed on the consumer end, as well. Illicitly produced marijuana is not being tested for pesticides, mold, or other contaminants. The chemicals used on illegal weed are known carcinogens and known neurotoxins. This stuff is very bad for you, and we know that criminal cannabis farms can be rather cavalier about increasing production to maximize profit — the ground and the watersheds around illicit cannabis farms contain terrifying amounts of these chemicals.

    So while Berenson worries about the profit motivations behind legal marijuana operators, he neglects to acknowledge that the existing illegal operators are also motivated by profit, in a much scarier way.

    And while there is no definitive proof that smoking marijuana causes schizophrenia, there sure as hell is proof that, because of its illegality, smoking marijuana can ruin your life. Yes, there are not very many people who are serving time in prison for cannabis offenses, but pot possession remains the most common reason for arrest in America. About 700,000 people a year are caught up in an expensive criminal justice nightmare simply because they got high. If the arrest leads to a conviction, it could follow you forever, affecting your ability to vote, apply for a loan, or get a job. And if you’re lucky, rich, or white enough to escape arrest as a pot smoker, your employer and your landlord still have the right to fire or evict you for using cannabis — even if you do so in a legal state.

    Of course, the possible association between schizophrenia and cannabis is nothing to be dismissive about. I’ve long taken the limited conclusions of that research very seriously. One of my closest friends has now been through two psychotic episodes, and I cared for her during both. To say I am obsessive about making sure she doesn’t smoke weed would be an understatement.

    But to portray yourself as the patron saint of unheralded research, and then to have those researchers say that you completely misunderstood — it’s difficult for me to see Berenson as sincere. Still, he’s correct that more research into cannabis is desperately needed. He’s correct in guessing that the rise of Big Pot would probably not be a good thing. And he’s correct in saying that marijuana businesses and advocates often distort reality and research to fit their claims.

    Here’s the thing though. You know who else is driven by profits to stretch the truth? Someone trying to sell copies of his book." - Rolling Stone
    Dang Dirk! That might be your most verbose post yet! Keep this up this level of response and I might start getting you and Mark confused with each other lol.

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  6. #64
    Moderator Eggman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by inuvik View Post
    Dang Dirk! That might be your most verbose post yet! Keep this up this level of response and I might start getting you and Mark confused with each other lol.
    The entirety of that post is not original work but rather an article copy and pasted. It's not even cited or linked to the source. At least Mark uses his own words.

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  7. #65
    Senior Member Dirk Diggler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eggman View Post
    The entirety of that post is not original work but rather an article copy and pasted. It's not even cited or linked to the source. At least Mark uses his own words.
    I guess you didn't read the "- Rolling Stone" at the end? Or how I stated it was an article in the beginning of my post?

  8. #66
    Senior Member Dirk Diggler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by inuvik View Post
    Dang Dirk! That might be your most verbose post yet! Keep this up this level of response and I might start getting you and Mark confused with each other lol.
    No lol it's from Rolling Stone, I type from my phone on here so it can be difficult.

  9. #67
    Moderator Eggman's Avatar
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    Still, a link exists between marijuana use and schizophrenia & psychosis.

    WebMD: Schizophrenia and Marijuana: Trigger or Treatment?

    What’s the Best Advice?

    Although the exact nature of the marijuana-schizophrenia link is still murky, doctors know enough to offer some guidelines:

    • It’s wise for teens to avoid marijuana or delay using it until they are adults.
    • If you have schizophrenia, don’t use marijuana.
    • If you have a family history of schizophrenia or other psychotic illness, avoid marijuana.
    • If you are a caregiver for someone who has schizophrenia and uses marijuana, encourage them to quit.
    It says nothing about Mirage owners, so there’s that.

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        click to view fuel log View my fuel log 2015 Mirage ES 1.2 manual: 49.6 mpg (US) ... 21.1 km/L ... 4.7 L/100 km ... 59.5 mpg (Imp)


  10. #68
    Senior Member Dirk Diggler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eggman View Post
    Still, a link exists between marijuana use and schizophrenia & psychosis.

    WebMD: Schizophrenia and Marijuana: Trigger or Treatment?


    It says nothing about Mirage owners, so there’s that.
    I would never encourage young developing minds to use or alcohol or pot, your in a whole new realm with kids. This whole thread is about adult use, I assumed that was understood. And no, I would never encourage someone already diagnosed with a severe mental issue to try pot, I'm mean c'mon brother. With that said, there is no definitive proof pot induces schizophrenia. The researchers even said this. It's just stated a % of mentally ill patients already imbibe in drugs, alcohol, tabacco. Are we going to turn this into a 30 page thread? I already said I respected your position and extended an olive branch of good will. Meet me half way Eggman xoxoxo

  11. #69
    Moderator inuvik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eggman View Post
    The entirety of that post is not original work but rather an article copy and pasted. It's not even cited or linked to the source. At least Mark uses his own words.
    Yeah I missed that part! Here I thought Dirk was revving up his own version of War and Peace

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  12. #70
    Moderator Eggman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dirk Diggler View Post
    I already said I respected your position and extended an olive branch of good will. Meet me half way Eggman xoxoxo
    Would you consider not promoting marijuana consumption?


        __________________________________________

        click to view fuel log View my fuel log 2015 Mirage ES 1.2 manual: 49.6 mpg (US) ... 21.1 km/L ... 4.7 L/100 km ... 59.5 mpg (Imp)


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