Mirageo...Lives!

[Loren]

Don't take this the wrong way, but you didn't brake hard enough. When you get back behind the wheel, you should go out and practice making quick stops. Normal ones. And then full-on ABS stops.

This is something I do with almost all of my students if I have time. Even if they're an adult driver who's been driving for years, most people have NO IDEA just how quick a car is capable of stopping. They've learned (rightfully so) to not brake too hard so that they don't lock up the brakes and skid. But, they don't understand how ABS works, and that ABS is there to save them from themselves in an emergency situation. So, we practice normal stops, then "everyday quick stops"... and then we get into panic stops. How quickly CAN the car stop with ABS, and what does it FEEL like? Highly recommend that everyone does this kind of thing from time to time.

I get at LOT of students who I'll talk through this process. I might even demonstrate it for them. And I'll tell them to get up to 20 or 25 mph, and when I tell you to stop "put your foot through the floor". And they won't brake hard enough to engage the ABS. I've had students literally make me go through that with them TEN TIMES just to get them to brake hard enough to barely engage the ABS. It's great that they have good habits, and I know I'm asking them to do something that they've learned to NOT do. But, it's important to know what ABS is and how to USE it when you need to. I'll say something like, "If a kid steps off the curb in front of you, STOP THE CAR. Forget smoothness. And if there's a car behind you, maybe they're going to hit you. But, you are responsible for not hitting what's in front of you, and you're not gonna hit that kid! Put your foot through the floor and let ABS do its thing! If you can brake less, then brake less... but, ABS is a tool in your arsenal, use it when you need it."

In this situation, you had time to have the thought "I don't have time to stop", but you never braked hard enough to engage the ABS. Maybe you didn't have time to stop, but perhaps you could have knocked off a little more speed and reduced the impact?

You know me, I'm not judging here. Just trying to educate.

A lot of modern cars have that "brake assist" feature. It detects when you hit the brakes "very quickly" and with a certain amount of force, and it basically takes over and engages the ABS for you because your input was such that it made the assumption that you wanted to stop. WHY does that technology exist? Because an awful lot of crashes are caused by people simply not braking hard enough.

[Eggman]

Don't take this the wrong way, but you didn't brake hard enough. When you get back behind the wheel, you should go out and practice making quick stops. Normal ones. And then full-on ABS stops.

This is something I do with almost all of my students if I have time. Even if they're an adult driver who's been driving for years, most people have NO IDEA just how quick a car is capable of stopping. They've learned (rightfully so) to not brake too hard so that they don't lock up the brakes and skid. But, they don't understand how ABS works, and that ABS is there to save them from themselves in an emergency situation. So, we practice normal stops, then "everyday quick stops"... and then we get into panic stops. How quickly CAN the car stop with ABS, and what does it FEEL like? Highly recommend that everyone does this kind of thing from time to time.

I get at LOT of students who I'll talk through this process. I might even demonstrate it for them. And I'll tell them to get up to 20 or 25 mph, and when I tell you to stop "put your foot through the floor". And they won't brake hard enough to engage the ABS. I've had students literally make me go through that with them TEN TIMES just to get them to brake hard enough to barely engage the ABS. It's great that they have good habits, and I know I'm asking them to do something that they've learned to NOT do. But, it's important to know what ABS is and how to USE it when you need to. I'll say something like, "If a kid steps off the curb in front of you, STOP THE CAR. Forget smoothness. And if there's a car behind you, maybe they're going to hit you. But, you are responsible for not hitting what's in front of you, and you're not gonna hit that kid! Put your foot through the floor and let ABS do its thing! If you can brake less, then brake less... but, ABS is a tool in your arsenal, use it when you need it."

In this situation, you had time to have the thought "I don't have time to stop", but you never braked hard enough to engage the ABS. Maybe you didn't have time to stop, but perhaps you could have knocked off a little more speed and reduced the impact?

You know me, I'm not judging here. Just trying to educate.

A lot of modern cars have that "brake assist" feature. It detects when you hit the brakes "very quickly" and with a certain amount of force, and it basically takes over and engages the ABS for you because your input was such that it made the assumption that you wanted to stop. WHY does that technology exist? Because an awful lot of crashes are caused by people simply not braking hard enough.

These are good points and are worth knowing. But short of being in the car when things start to unfold, it's not always fair to go into hypothetical scenarios.

In an emergency situation, people panic and don't always do the logical thing. Sometimes people lock up trying to decide the best course of action. It's an overwhelming amount of information unfolding in an instant and when a decision is made it may be too late to be effective.

Even if one is trained and practiced in responding to these situations it can be difficult to react appropriately in a timely manner.

Emergency situations cause confusion. Its' completely understandable. Glad you are okay Rally and that things aren't worse.

[twister77]

A lot of modern cars have that "brake assist" feature.

Like our Mirages! At least 2019 and up..

[Johnny Mullet]

Hopefully they do a nice job fixing it. Most of all I am glad you are OK.

[Loren]

These are good points and are worth knowing. But short of being in the car when things start to unfold, it's not always fair to go into hypothetical scenarios.

Oh, for sure. That's why I started with a question, and tried to present information in a non-accusatory manner. What I'm saying may or may not have helped. But, "the more you know".

Flip side: It's ALWAYS worth dissecting any crash or near crash in every way possible. "What could I have done differently?" "Could I have avoided this?" Sometimes the answer is no. Sometimes the answer is maybe. Often, if you REALLY think about it, you'll find that the answer is clearly yes.

[Mark]

A lot of modern cars have that "brake assist" feature. It detects when you hit the brakes "very quickly" and with a certain amount of force, and it basically takes over and engages the ABS for you because your input was such that it made the assumption that you wanted to stop. WHY does that technology exist? Because an awful lot of crashes are caused by people simply not braking hard enough.

I don't feel "not braking hard enough" is the issue in most situations.

If you are activating the ABS (dry pavement or slippery roads) when stopping, you are in a situation where you are needing to brake harder than normal. You've already done something wrong basically.

Deer are unpredictable. You most likely did nothing wrong! I highly doubt ABS has done anything to reduced deer/car collisions. I'm sure Wisconsin hunters harvesting over 300,000 deer in 2020 have done more for the cause in my area. Yet, deer are still hit.

Overall in many situations, ABS does very little to make you stop faster. It's designed to help you stop in a straight line & not lose control of steering. No one should have a false sense that ABS brakes are going to stop you faster. We just don't have to teach kids to pump the brakes on slippery surfaces any more. ABS does that for them!

You should drive a vehicle with ABS slightly differently than a vehicle without ABS on slippery surfaces. It's important to know what you have before you're in that situation. If you were on dry roads, ABS brakes is not going to prevent a deer collision. Slowing down & braking earlier is your only hope. The problem is deer come out of no where. People drive too fast for what they can see with their headlights. When you're about to hit a deer, braking harder isn't going to do much for you at that point! It's too late!

Distracted drivers & going too fast for conditions are probably the biggest causes of accidents. Having said that, I have 4 spots on my way home from town where I slow down at night. Why? I see deer in those spots quite often. Do I complain? No! I live where I do, because I am an avid deer hunter.

You can be as careful as possible & hitting a deer may still happen. Nothing makes me slam on the brakes more than deer, because they are unpredictable & hard to see at times (especially at dawn/dusk). I don't find myself slamming on my brakes for much else, because I drive for the conditions.

Personally, I like deer. I had venison for lunch today! Very tasty! Just trying to keep it light at the end here!

[Loren]

I don't feel "not braking hard enough" is the issue in most situations.

If you are activating the ABS (dry pavement or slippery roads) when stopping, you are in a situation where you are needing to brake harder than normal. You've already done something wrong basically.

Oh, trust me, I spend WAY more time on driving lessons talking about that. If you're driving properly, proper space ahead of you, good awareness of what's around you and further ahead, you should almost never have to make a "normal" quick stop, and even more rarely have to use the ABS. But, stuff happens, and I want them to know how their brakes work. 6 months after their time with me, I don't want them to be out in traffic in the rain, have somebody do something unexpected in front of them, and when they brake hard and feel the ABS... not know what it is and make the mistake of lifting off of the brakes because they think something is wrong. That's why I teach ABS. Every driver should know what it is, how it works, and what it feels like. If I don't teach it, they'll never learn until they're almost crashing into something.

After demonstrating ABS with a student, my next discussion is always IMMEDIATELY to tell them that they're going to get creamed by the car behind them if they brake that hard. Know what's behind you! Take a microsecond to double-check the mirror. "Do I need to brake this hard? Could I brake a bit less? Could I safely make a lane change instead?" If some dumb pedestrian suddenly sprints out in front of you, you just might need to brake that hard. You'll take the hit from the dump truck behind you and not hit the pedestrian. But, if you can brake less... then brake less. If you're doing it right, you'll normally SEE the pedestrian that might step off the curb long before you get there, and if he looks suspect... you're already off the gas and covering the brake. And you're already aware of what's behind you and whether or not you have the option of making a lane change if necessary.

I'm not teaching kids to RELY on their ABS! Just to be aware of it and understand how it works, and know that it's a tool in their arsenal. It's there when you need it. Don't be afraid to BRAKE HARD when you need to. If you need to be stopped "yesterday", brake even harder.

I thought I presented what I said pretty well in this thread. No accusations here, just information. I'm not saying that this crash COULD have been avoided. Just that understanding how ABS works and braking harder POSSIBLY could have helped. Maybe. Maybe not. A few mph slower, maybe the deer would have gotten across the road and not been hit? A few mph slower and maybe it would have been a 25 mph impact instead of a 30 mph impact? The OP got my meaning, and even expressed that he learned something from what I said. That's all I was after. Y'all are making it sound like I'm picking on him, and I'm not.

I don't feel "not braking hard enough" is the issue in most situations.

You're free to feel that, but I'm not making this stuff up.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4690537/
"The results showed strong differences between the experienced adult and novice teen drivers in the brake pressure applied. When placed in the same situation, the novice teens decelerated on average 50% less than the experienced adults."

https://brainonboard.ca/safety_featu...ake_assist.php
"Studies show that when making emergency stops, about half of all drivers do not press the brake fast enough or hard enough to make full use of their vehicle’s braking power (NHTSA 2010; Page et al. 2005)."

https://www.crashtest.org/brake-assist-system/
"During simulation tests, 99% of drivers were reportedly slow to press the brake pedals or too late to apply the full brake."

[Mark]

I thought I presented what I said pretty well in this thread. No accusations here, just information. I'm not saying that this crash COULD have been avoided. Just that understanding how ABS works and braking harder POSSIBLY could have helped. Maybe. Maybe not. A few mph slower, maybe the deer would have gotten across the road and not been hit? A few mph slower and maybe it would have been a 25 mph impact instead of a 30 mph impact? The OP got my meaning, and even expressed that he learned something from what I said. That's all I was after. Y'all are making it sound like I'm picking on him, and I'm not.

You presented things very well. In the heat of the moment of hitting a deer it's possible to overlook whether or not the ABS activated.

I look at the sensation of ABS kicking in as a reminder that you need to change things. I had a moment like this yesterday. We got blasted with snow/ice on Thursday. School was canceled both Thursday & Friday. I drove into town on Friday afternoon to clean off our driver's education cars parked at the high school. I felt my ABS kick in at one of the 4-way stops. It was a good little reminder that the roads were really slick, & I needed to slow down even more.

I only had one btw lesson today & poor road conditions added to the learning process.

I agree everyone should experience ABS kicking in & know what it feels like. You covered that quite well. I see no reason to expand on that.

I have no doubt students don't use their brake hard enough in emergency situations. I feel like I spend a lot of time teaching students to drive in such way they aren't using their brakes so much. We are sort of a rural area. When I take them to a larger city area, they struggle with that. Accelerate, hit the brakes, accelerate, hit the brake is not the goal, & some struggle with that.

I also find myself spending a lot of time on the timing of braking hard. Today for example - state highways were pretty clear of snow & ice. Side roads not so much. I had kids pull into a historical marker spot along a state highway. 4-5' snow banks prevented them from seeing what they were turning into. It was crucial they signaled early & did the majority of their braking on drive pavement before hitting the unknown area. The unknown area had spots that were covered in sand & some that were missed. Sand or not - ice/snow covered area required a much slower entrance than normal. Without coaching, they really misjudge these situations.

I have one memory of driving with my dad as a kid. He was always critical of me coming in too fast into intersections & having to use the brakes too hard. I can still hear him say, "I'm gonna have to replace the brakes in this truck within a year the way you drive." I starting driving around age 10 or so, & I still had a lot to learn at age 15-16.

Once my grandpa sent me to the fire department in town to get help for a field caught on fire. Later he realized I may not have my license yet. I drove my uncle's old International pickup truck (4-speed manual) into town that day to get help. I was 12. No one said anything. My grandpa didn't give my parents all the details later that day. What they didn't know ...

Personally, I am not a fan of ABS. I like being in control. I realize the word "freak" is attached to that sometimes. Even buying a vehicle with an automatic transmission would be hard for me. Having said that, I know ABS is a great features for most drivers. It's easier for me to adapt to ABS than teach someone to stop without skidding by pumping the brakes.

[Loren]

We're off topic here, but I guess that's the norm for this forum.

You teach in a very different environment from me. We don't have winter weather to worry about here, just rain sometimes. So, my students won't ever feel ABS unless they're braking really hard. And it's very much urban/suburban here. I have to make a special trip to get "out of town" to do a lesson on curvy back roads... which I do when I can. (otherwise, I have students who know how to drive straight and drive 90 degree turns... but, slow to a crawl for any curve) Teaching on ice and snow would be somewhere between really fun and terrifying depending on the student! But, I guess that's the nature of the job, in general.

I preach the heck out of "drive smoothly" from the very first lesson with every student. We do cover quick stops and ABS as early as they seem ready to learn it, but the way I expect them to drive in the real world is to keep proper space, OBSERVE, and react to things early enough to be smooth. "Put on your limo driver hat, don't spill the boss' martini in the back." But, also "smooth doesn't necessarily mean slow", we're still getting where we're going and not holding up traffic.

I used to hate ABS, too! I especially hated older "cheap" ABS, like the "rear only" ABS on some 90's pickup trucks, or the "3-channel" ABS on cheap 90's cars that had separate channels for the fronts, but both rear tires on the same channel.

Stupid 90's ABS anecdote that Mirage Rally will probably appreciate:
I used to be into Saturns when I first started autocrossing. Mine didn't have ABS, but I drove a friend's that did. If you've ever done or watched autocross, you know that FWD cars have the strong tendency to lift an inside rear wheel under hard cornering. Well, Saturns do that, too. And I was used to my Saturn. I could fling it into a fast sweeping turn, and still brake a little to scrub some speed if I needed to while entering that turn. (the turn in question was a decreasing radius turn) Tried that in the ABS car. Fast sweeping turn, right rear tire lifted. Tapped the brake and got NOTHING. Because the unloaded rear tire instantly locked, the ABS must have thought I was on ice and was waiting for that locked wheel to start rolling again, which it didn't do until started straightening up. SCARY! Fortunately, I just hit a couple cones.

I've since made my peace with ABS because the technology has gotten a lot better. Plus, we kinda don't have a choice any more. All cars have it.

[Mark]

We're off topic here, but I guess that's the norm for this forum.

You teach in a very different environment from me. We don't have winter weather to worry about here, just rain sometimes. So, my students won't ever feel ABS unless they're braking really hard. And it's very much urban/suburban here. I have to make a special trip to get "out of town" to do a lesson on curvy back roads... which I do when I can. (otherwise, I have students who know how to drive straight and drive 90 degree turns... but, slow to a crawl for any curve) Teaching on ice and snow would be somewhere between really fun and terrifying depending on the student! But, I guess that's the nature of the job, in general.

I preach the heck out of "drive smoothly" from the very first lesson with every student. We do cover quick stops and ABS as early as they seem ready to learn it, but the way I expect them to drive in the real world is to keep proper space, OBSERVE, and react to things early enough to be smooth. "Put on your limo driver hat, don't spill the boss' martini in the back." But, also "smooth doesn't necessarily mean slow", we're still getting where we're going and not holding up traffic.

I used to hate ABS, too! I especially hated older "cheap" ABS, like the "rear only" ABS on some 90's pickup trucks, or the "3-channel" ABS on cheap 90's cars that had separate channels for the fronts, but both rear tires on the same channel.

Stupid 90's ABS anecdote that Mirage Rally will probably appreciate:
I used to be into Saturns when I first started autocrossing. Mine didn't have ABS, but I drove a friend's that did. If you've ever done or watched autocross, you know that FWD cars have the strong tendency to lift an inside rear wheel under hard cornering. Well, Saturns do that, too. And I was used to my Saturn. I could fling it into a fast sweeping turn, and still brake a little to scrub some speed if I needed to while entering that turn. (the turn in question was a decreasing radius turn) Tried that in the ABS car. Fast sweeping turn, right rear tire lifted. Tapped the brake and got NOTHING. Because the unloaded rear tire instantly locked, the ABS must have thought I was on ice and was waiting for that locked wheel to start rolling again, which it didn't do until started straightening up. SCARY! Fortunately, I just hit a couple cones.

I've since made my peace with ABS because the technology has gotten a lot better. Plus, we kinda don't have a choice any more. All cars have it.

Yes, our situations are very different. I have to drive with them about an hour one-way to reach an area with with 4-lane highways with entrance/exit ramps and round about intersections.

I chuckle at Walmart parking lot pedestrians who sort of react to driver's education cars. I always think/say - "what's the odds of both of us not braking for them?" We're probably the safest vehicle in the entire parking lot. I also remind my students - "Dents in a driver's education car never looks good!"

Overall, we are teaching the same things. My most difficult students have been adults in their 40's, who didn't get their license when younger. I think one woman had a bad experience with her husband trying to teach her, & she was taking lessons behind his back. If she had shoved her new driver's license down his throat, I wouldn't have been surprised.

I once got an 82 year old lady who paid for a single btw lesson. Her kids were giving her a hard time about driving, & she wanted a second opinion from someone outside her family. We stuck her oxygen tank between the front seat & took off. I asked where she usually went? Off to church & the grocery store we went! Overall, she wasn't that bad!

How far off topic are we now?