Lubrication

[Grumpy Bear]

Decoding the last post:

I've had several Honda Civics that have run flawlessly and for very long times that ran on an oil with enough solvency to keep the ring packs clean and fully functional and I did this at OEM OCI's of 7.5K miles (12K Km) and decent filters. These were SPFI motors with simple VVT. Every one of these rusted out before the driveline gave up. All were spotless inside with good compression and low leak down.

One Toyota and this GMC I serviced "By the Book" which meant non-polar (dry detergent) OEM recommended and licensed oils on OEM OCI's, and both were using copious amounts of oil before 100K miles and after warranty. Both sludged up, lost compression and bore polished to ruination. The fact I did it twice makes me an idiot. or at least gullible.

Detergent oils do not PREVENT deposit formation when the add packs ability to prevent nucleation has been exceeded and the dispersant package which hinders propagation, is depleted. That period of effectiveness is much shorter than the OEMs and EPA wish it to be, but it is long enough to get you out of warranty.... most of the time. Albeit it is longer than non-detergent oils by a smidgen.

With the GMC I cut the OCI by 33% and it was still too long to be effective under a process upset. Leaking HPFP. That number was in fact one half as long as when the motor was first released. Even GM knew 10K had proved to be too long. It was their FIRST MOVE to solve the ring issues. I would expect that using prescribed oils that maybe 2 to 3K might be about right and 2K closer to the truth.

People overestimate the useful life of dry oils and licensed products. OEM's count on it.

[Mark]

Decoding the last post:

I've had several Honda Civics that have run flawlessly and for very long times that ran on an oil with enough solvency to keep the ring packs clean and fully functional and I did this at OEM OCI's of 7.5K miles (12K Km) and decent filters. These were SPFI motors with simple VVT. Every one of these rusted out before the driveline gave up. All were spotless inside with good compression and low leak down.

One Toyota and this GMC I serviced "By the Book" which meant non-polar (dry detergent) OEM recommended and licensed oils on OEM OCI's, and both were using copious amounts of oil before 100K miles and after warranty. Both sludged up, lost compression and bore polished to ruination. The fact I did it twice makes me an idiot. or at least gullible.

Detergent oils do not PREVENT deposit formation when the add packs ability to prevent nucleation has been exceeded and the dispersant package which hinders propagation, is depleted. That period of effectiveness is much shorter than the OEMs and EPA wish it to be, but it is long enough to get you out of warranty.... most of the time. Albeit it is longer than non-detergent oils by a smidgen.

With the GMC I cut the OCI by 33% and it was still too long to be effective under a process upset. Leaking HPFP. That number was in fact one half as long as when the motor was first released. Even GM knew 10K had proved to be too long. It was their FIRST MOVE to solve the ring issues. I would expect that using prescribed oils that maybe 2 to 3K might be about right and 2K closer to the truth.

People overestimate the useful life of dry oils and licensed products. OEM's count on it.

Some forum members feel 7,500 mile OCIs are perfectly fine. I do 5,000 miles OCI, and I think that's pushing it.

Steve's Cheap Plastic Car did fine with 5W-30 conventional oil (done mostly at a Cadillac dealership for free) changed every 5,000 miles, & his car was @ approximately 307,000 miles when he sold it. I'm just stating that. I'm not recommending you take your Mirage to your nearest Cadillac dealership for service.

[7milesout]

Mark - I don't think Grumpy has a Mirage yet. Because if he did, he'd be using Fram filters and Castrol traditional 10W-30 on 7,500 mile OCI, and living life with no worries!

[Fummins]

Some forum members feel 7,500 mile OCIs are perfectly fine. I do 5,000 miles OCI, and I think that's pushing it.

Steve's Cheap Plastic Car did fine with 5W-30 conventional oil (done mostly at a Cadillac dealership for free) changed every 5,000 miles, & his car was @ approximately 307,000 miles when he sold it. I'm just stating that. I'm not recommending you take your Mirage to your nearest Cadillac dealership for service.

I just installed a daewoo designed ecocrap 1.8L with 500,000kms into a Sonic that has 260k kms(timing belt broke and bent all the valves). It's ran on kool-aid it's entire life.

[Eggman]

Are all engines like this? Or just Toyota...

[Grumpy Bear]

Are all engines like this? Or just Toyota...

No. Gerotor (torchoild) crank driven is common but not universal. Sliding vane, internal and external gear pumps are also used. Some are cam driven. OEM wet sump systems. Belt driven external pumps aka dry sump and piston or plunger pumps are also used.

[Grumpy Bear]

I knew a guy who drove home drunk every night of the week for over three years and never had an accident and never got caught. He drove home because he was too drunk to walk home. Did this on a motorcycle. It never made me conclude this was a safe practice.

[Fummins]

I knew a guy who drove home drunk every night of the week for over three years and never had an accident and never got caught. He drove home because he was too drunk to walk home. Did this on a motorcycle. It never made me conclude this was a safe practice.

Guy drives home drunk five nights a week for fifty years. Never has an incident. Never gets a ticket.

Should I conclude that drinking and driving is safe? It's the problem of anecdotal evidence. Bigger problem is that people will follow that fool's example and swear by it, to it and for it. Site it as evidence to its validity.

Data would not just suggest but prove otherwise. Seems common sense.

The problem with common sense is....it isn't commonly used.

There seems to be an ongoing theme here. I’ll let you know when I figure it out.

[Eggman]

No. Gerotor (torchoild) crank driven is common but not universal. Sliding vane, internal and external gear pumps are also used. Some are cam driven. OEM wet sump systems. Belt driven external pumps aka dry sump and piston or plunger pumps are also used.

Thanks Grumpy Bear. Not sure if you saw the entire video but the pump is only a small part of the presentation. It covers all the areas of the Toyota engine that uses oil, and how it gets there. I didn't know the crankshaft & camshafts are hollow.

[Grumpy Bear]

Thanks Grumpy Bear. Not sure if you saw the entire video but the pump is only a small part of the presentation. It covers all the areas of the Toyota engine that uses oil, and how it gets there. I didn't know the crankshaft & camshafts are hollow.

I did not but I will later today. I applaud your inquisitiveness. Many cams and cranks are hollow. Some are not. Some are drilled. Some use dedicated channels or internal pipe ways. Some small and many very old motors are splash lubricated.